HANSARD
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE
Ms. Diana Whalen (Chairman)
Hon. Judy Streatch
Mr. Keith Bain
Mr. Chuck Porter
Mr. Howard Epstein
Ms. Vicki Conrad
Mr. Leonard Preyra
Mr. David Wilson (Glace Bay)
Mr. Harold Theriault
IN ATTENDANCE:
Mrs. Darlene Henry
Legislative Committee Clerk
WITNESSES
Service Canada
Mr. Randy Jewers, Labour Market Analyst
Mr. Michael Rushe, Labour Market Analyst
Nova Scotia Business Inc.
Mr. Darin Steeves, Corporate Strategist
Department of Education
Mr. Stuart Gourley, Senior Executive Director
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HALIFAX, TUESDAY, JUNE 12, 2007
STANDING COMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT
9:00 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Ms. Diana Whalen
VICE-CHAIRMAN
Mr. Chuck Porter
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Good morning, I'd like to call the meeting to order. I wonder if our guests this morning could introduce themselves, and then I'll have members of the committee introduce themselves and then we'll have your presentation.
[The committee members and witnesses introduced themselves.]
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Welcome to all of you. I know you have prepared a presentation and that would be very helpful to us to begin with, so I'm going to turn it over to you.
MR. RANDY JEWERS: Is it okay if I don't use the mic, or should I speak into the microphone?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: We record everything and put it into Hansard, so it's best if they can hear you. You can stand, I think they can pick that up easily.
[Page 2]
MR. JEWERS: Thank you. I have been a Labour Market Economist with Service Canada since 1984 and we've been tracking labour market information and labour market statistics. I'm here to give you a brief overview, and I'm going to sketch it out with some historical information looking at some labour force survey information related to Nova Scotia and some annual average information over the last few years - it's going to be descriptive in nature in terms of what we present. You may know some of our materials as we send out each month a labour market brief - it's a shorter document, but it's meant to sketch out labour market developments in the province and all MLAs are on the distribution list, so you may be familiar with that.
I'm going to mine that a bit, derive some statistics, and we'll take a look at some of the major indicators. I understand I have a fairly brief amount of time here, so I'm going to try to move it along.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Given that we have fewer members here today it's fine if you take a little more time, because we usually fill up the time with questioning.
MR. JEWERS: Thank you. Sometimes it's a challenge to be brief.
The first slide I would like to talk about today is the working age population in Nova Scotia, and it is the fundamental base of the labour force - it is the population of Nova Scotia aged 15-plus, and it includes seniors. The key characteristic of this slide is that the growth of the working age population has been slowing down over time and this is due to a few factors, one being a lowering birth rate, people are having less children. There are migration issues as well, which Michael will be speaking about. Not only is the population slowing in terms of growth, it is aging as well, and that is a challenge.
The median age has increased in the population - and the median being that age where half the population is above or half the population is below a certain age - it has increased from 1971 when it was about 25 years, to 2011 when it is expected to be 42 years, so the population is aging and there are certainly issues related to population and aging as it translates into labour force and labour market indications.
The second slide I'll show you is the labour force in Nova Scotia. The labour force is actually that set of the working age population that is either employed or unemployed and actively searching for work. It is again one of the most basic measures, it is a supply measure of the labour market - to be in here you have to be unemployed and the key factor is you have to be actively seeking work as well. If you are not actively seeking work you are not considered to be part of the unemployed, you are not in the labour force.
You may have seen a common measure which is called the labour force participation rate - it is the proportion of the working age population that is in the labour force. I didn't bring statistics with me today, but it is a common measure that relates to what supply is
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actually available in the labour market. Again, mirroring the working age population, labour force growth has been slowing as the source population slows, and it also has been aging as well. An aging population, generally older workers participate less in the labour market, so we have an issue with labour force participation declining over time as the workforce ages. Nova Scotia tends to be a bit more above the national average in terms of aged population as well.
One of the fundamental measures in terms of labour market performance is the actual employment levels in Nova Scotia. Following some fairly significant growth in the 1990s - in fact we led the country in a lot of cases in terms of employment growth - we've had a slowdown in employment over the last few years, and actually we experienced a decline last year in terms of 2005-2006. That decline was in full-time employment; part-time employment stayed basically the same - so we are under some pressure in terms of employment growth slowing down.
Corresponding to a general improvement in the labour market, the unemployment rate in Nova Scotia has fallen fairly dramatically over the last 10 years. We've gone from averaging around 12 per cent in the mid-1990s down to below 8 per cent currently, and that has been a fairly dramatic decrease. Now, care does have to be taken here with interpreting the unemployment rate because it does reflect two factors - one being that as jobs increase and employment goes up the unemployment rates fall, but as the labour market shrinks as well the unemployment rate can decrease as well. So we have to be very careful how we interpret falling unemployment rates here, and in a sense some of this may be reflecting - over the last year or so - an actual shrinking in the size of the labour market as well. But I do want to reflect on the fact that job growth has been fairly significant in Nova Scotia over the last decade.
One of the characteristics that stands out in terms of the labour market performance and how it has changed in terms of the last five to six years, since the beginning of the decade, has been the shift from goods to service-sector employment. Nova Scotia currently has the highest proportion of employment in services in Canada, and in some cases it is fairly dramatic. Cape Breton has a very significant share, well over 80 per cent of its employment is in the service sector.
We have the goods producing industries. As a quick definition, goods producing include agriculture, forestry, fishing, mining, utilities - and that would be the power companies - construction and manufacturing. The service producing industries include wholesale and retail trade; transportation and communication; finance; insurance and related; professional, scientific and research services; business support services, including the call centres are in here as well; information, communication, and recreation and that links to a lot of the information technology sectors in Nova Scotia; the large sectors of education and health; accommodation and food services, which tend to be tourism-related; and public administration.
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One of the factors that I would like to suggest here in terms of a key characteristic has been the growth in business support services in Nova Scotia. We've had tremendous growth in our call centre activity - it has quadrupled since 1987. We've gone from employment in business support services, which are primarily call centres, from 7,000 up to about 28,000 employees. Other sectors of services which are large, including accommodation and food, have remained relatively stable - we're given the sense that the growth in tourism has been relatively stable over the last few years.
We track employment by five different economic zones in Nova Scotia through Stats Canada. The five zones are broken into five economic regions: Cape Breton; North Shore, which is Cumberland right through to Guysborough County; Annapolis Valley, Annapolis, Kings and Hants; southern Nova Scotia which goes from Digby all the way through to Lunenburg County; and Halifax County as well. The point of this slide is our growth since the beginning of the decade has been fairly well dispersed around Nova Scotia in terms of employment. Halifax County has the bulk of it, but then Halifax County accounts for a large share of the labour market as well, so it's not unusual. There has been job growth spread around Nova Scotia.
[9:15 a.m.]
The last slide I'll put in, in terms of my labour market presentation, will be the educational attainment. I think it is important to note the fact that the labour market is favouring those who are better educated. Employment changes since the beginning of the decade, the greatest growth has been in the most highly educated elements of the workforce. The greatest employment increase has been in university degrees, in fact that accounts for over 50 per cent of all the employment increase over the last five years, it has been for those with university degrees.
Generally those who have less than high school, the labour market has deteriorated for those people. It is increasingly challenging to participate in the labour market with low levels of education.
Not only has job growth increased for those who are better educated, unemployment rates have fallen for those with higher levels of educational attainment and, as you can see, the unemployment rate for those with a university degree is less than one-quarter of those who have very low levels of education, which is less than Grade 9. There's a clear message that education matters here.
Now the key points I'd like to leave you with: population growth is slowing, it's going to create some challenges, not only slowing but aging as well in Nova Scotia and we may be aging a bit more than the national average; labour force growth is under pressure and there are a few factors - one is the aging and slowing of the population and how it's having an impact on the labour market; employment growth has slowed following some tremendous
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growth that's been experienced over the last decade; unemployment rates have fallen - we're still in relatively low historical unemployment rates; we have a strong shift to service sector employment and away from goods sector employment; employment growth has been distributed across Nova Scotia; and a key component, I think, is that the labour market has improved for those who are better educated.
That is my presentation.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Jewers. Did you have more to add to that as well?
Mr. Rushe. Please go ahead.
MR. MICHAEL RUSHE: What I'm going to talk about is the issue in relation to migration and how migration patterns are impacting Nova Scotia. So when we talk about migration, what I'm presenting here is to start off with over the period 1995 to 2005, and all of this data comes from Statistics Canada and it comes from tax filer data. It compares individual tax returns for two consecutive years, and since close to 70 per cent of the population are tax filers, it covers, in fact, close to 97 per cent of our entire population.
So over the last 10 years we can see this is migration out of Nova Scotia. It includes people who leave for other provinces and also who emigrate internationally. So on average, each year over the last 10 years, we've had an approximate outflow of close to 18,000 people.
Now with those 18,000 people, an average 90 to 95 per cent leave Nova Scotia to go to other provinces, so what you're talking about is close to 17,000 people leave the province to go to other parts of Canada.
This slide here looks at the interprovincial mobility, that is moving from one part of say, Nova Scotia, to another part of Canada. So you have outflows, people leaving and people coming into the province. In most years, except two years, we've had negative outflows in the sense that we've had more people leaving than coming to the province.
Mobility is an issue; we reached a new peak in 2004 and 2005 in relation to the net outflows. Data for 2006 is preliminary at this stage and, in fact, it shows an increase again for the period 2005-06 of approximately close to 4,000 people. So this shows you what is happening in relation to movements.
We can't forget about the larger picture and that also includes the international sector. So again here, in all but three years, over this 10-year period we have had a situation where in Nova Scotia we have gained as a result of migration, but the gains are coming almost solely from the international migration - so it really highlights the importance of immigrants
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coming to the province. With that being said, we'll see that again in 2004-05, when we factor in the interprovincial movement and then even factor in the international migration patterns, we had a net loss as a result of mobility.
A lot of this reflects, certainly in the mid-1990s to the latter part of that decade, business climate conditions where the economic opportunities were really not here in the province. So it improved then in 2000-01, again we had a dip here - it's really uncertain or unclear as to what, in fact, might have caused this - and we see again, 2004-05, we've gone into a negative situation and a lot of this is resulting from the draw from western Canada.
When we go down to the county level, over this 10- year period, in fact most counties throughout the province were lost to migration. Halifax County and the surrounding counties were, in fact, net gainers - Halifax gained a total of 17,000 people as a result of migration and Lunenburg was a small gainer. Cape Breton County in fact had the biggest net loss, over close to 10,000 people left Cape Breton during that period. Now this also - when we look at the migration - this includes intra-provincial, like moving from one part of Nova Scotia to another.
An interesting situation which is not shown here, is that between - and you can break down the data year by year, which if people want to, this type of information we can provide you with later - it was interesting that in the period 1995 to 2000, there was a larger exodus from Cape Breton than in the 2000-05 period. With that also being said, in the 1995 to 2000 period, we had more people coming into Halifax than what happened in the early part of this decade.
So it shows - and this when we look at the migration issue - we see even from population figures that Halifax County and the surrounding areas, from census data, they are in fact showing population increases. We have greater urbanization taking place.
A question that is often raised is what is happening with the youth population. Again, we have to realize that the youth is the most mobile of all the population groups. They tend to be at that age where they are looking for perhaps a change of location, they move because of family and friends, or just for job opportunities or the excitement of living elsewhere. So throughout this entire period, regardless of which year we look at, we have a net loss of youth from Nova Scotia.
During this 10-year period we lost close to 7,000 individuals between 18 and 24 years of age. But you also need to put it into perspective, and when you look at, say for example, 2004-05, you see that there's a net loss of just over 800 people. When you put that into what is that in relation to the size of our youth population, it's probably a little under 1 per cent in that particular year. So the youth 18 to 24, the population of Nova Scotia in 2004- 05 was a little under 90,000, so what we have here is about 1 per cent of our youth.
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Again, 1997-98, this was very much reflective of what was happening in the business cycle, the economic opportunities weren't here, so it peaked then - figures for the most recent year I don't have.
The next age cohort is 25 to 44 - it is interesting here that in all the years, except three, we in fact were net gainers within this age population, except for the most recent data. Mobility tends to decline as people age, because of the economic costs associated with moving and also the social costs. So it tends to decline, but in 2004-05, in relation to this period of time, it was 10 times larger than any other period where in fact we lost individuals in this age category.
So where do people come from, or where do they go? In relation to where we gained population as a result of migration, Newfoundland and Labrador has been a primary source of interprovincial migrants for the province. So, over the 10-year period, we had close to 7,000 individuals, net gain, coming from Newfoundland and Labrador, but if we've gained, look at different time periods, certainly in the early part, 1995 to 2000, we had a higher share of people coming from Newfoundland and Labrador than we've had in this decade. So that, as a source population, is declining.
In relation to Ontario and Alberta, certainly they are the main destination points but, primarily, Alberta is the major player. Ontario has in fact been losing significance as a destination point over the last number of years. Again, from this chart you can see that the international component plays a major part in relation to negating some of the adverse impacts that result from out-migration in Nova Scotia. We rely heavily on - just close to over 16,000 people came to Nova Scotia during this period.
We also have to be aware, in relation to international migration, that we have a phenomenon referred to as secondary out-migration, where a lot of immigrants come to Nova Scotia and then leave. Some studies have indicated that close to 50 per cent of immigrants who come to Nova Scotia, or who are actually destined - we don't, in fact, always know whether they have actually landed here - leave for other parts.
So over this time period, again, I just primarily looked at the two main provinces that we tend to gauge in relation to out-migration, Alberta and Ontario. Certainly, in 2004-05, we reached a new peak in relation to population losses to Alberta. What you have to look at here when we look at 27,000, this factors in people coming from Alberta to Nova Scotia, and people leaving Nova Scotia to go to Alberta. So it is the main player here. It is not the first time that it has been a player on the scene. Back in 1997-98, again, very much reflective of our business climate situation, we had a huge out-migration to Alberta, but certainly 2004-05 figures indicate that we have reached a new peak, and some preliminary estimates would indicate that this number for 2005-06, in fact, has increased. (Interruption) It's 2,700, did I say 27,000? Okay, 2,700, thank you. Maybe I should be looking at this more than trying to
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just deliver it - 2,700 in 2004-05. So as I said, people often think about Ontario, but really it's not in the game anymore, Alberta is the draw.
So some of the key messages that, again, I leave you with is, in relation to the interprovincial out-migration, we reached a new peak in 2004-05. In fact, people are much more mobile not just here in Canada, but internationally. In fact, when we look at the youth mobility, youth tend to go to larger urban centres.
We see the importance of international migration. Halifax and surrounding areas - we talk about the one and a half hour radius from Halifax - have been, in fact, net gainers throughout this whole time period. Youth, ages 18 to 24, represent the largest share, and Alberta is the main out-migration destination.
That concludes my presentation. Thank you.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: I think that's very informative for us, as well.
Mr. Gourley, you have one for us, as well?
MR. STUART GOURLEY: Yes, I do.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: We're going to be very well-informed, I know, by the end of this morning.
MR. GOURLEY: I hope so. While they're setting it up, thank you very much for the opportunity to make this presentation to you, and to give you a little perspective on what happens when you convert the numbers to policy issues and to imperatives that will drive us in the future.
[9:30 a.m.]
I want to talk just for a second about skills shortages, labour shortages. It's important that when you're having this discussion that you understand that there are really only three things that can drive these things: lack of people, end of story. So you could convert that and say out-migration, or not enough people being born, those kinds of things; lack of people with the right skills to do the jobs that are on offer, whether they're the right types of skills to fill the market; then, finally, but by far and away not the least important issue, do you have enough people, skilled or unskilled, who are ready to work for the wages and working conditions that are on offer by employers. It's a key component of what it is. So when you're having these discussions in your constituencies and whatnot, it is important that you figure out which one of these one or two or three, perhaps, that are being discussed.
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From that, we believe that there are really five systemic issues within the labour market, based on the numbers that Service Canada provides and based on our own analysis.
Our labour market is facing the demographic issue, which you've heard a lot about this morning. We are getting older. Our population in terms of its birth rate is dropping. So this is going to impact on where we go.
Productivity levels in the province, we are, in terms of labour productivity, the second-lowest in the country, only beaten by P.E.I. by a very small, small margin. So this is an issue that will need to be addressed.
Literacy and essential skills, this is a challenge across the province. We have 240,000 people who exist at levels one and two of the five-point scale for literacy.
Changing nature of work, and this is a key component because it's driven by a number of different things. In terms of the nature of work, you have the skills that are present in the current economy, but if you start bringing in new businesses, you change that skill that is required, and so you may, in fact, have a skill requirement that has not been indigenous, if you will, to our labour market in the past so you have to do things, actively, in order to address that issue. Secondly, if you bring in new processes, new technology, you also have to educate in order to be able to deal with that. People who are currently working with old technology or old process have to be moved or up-skilled so they can deal with this new reality. Then last but not least, if we fail to invest in capital, in capital equipment and technology, this will cause a problem in terms of the nature of work that we have available because it causes plant shutdown. When that occurs, large numbers of people are shifted very fast from one place to another.
Last but not least is employer adaptation, and from that perspective I'm talking about how employers will need to shift their thinking.
So let's talk about implications around the demographics. What happens when people retire is you lose experience and you lose learning. It goes away. It leaves the marketplace.
Fewer young people to learn the work, if our birthrate is dropping, the intake at the Primary grade level, for example, in the P to 12 system, is dropping significantly, as we know, this will decrease the number of available workers over time.
Fewer people to do the work, tougher employee recruitment. As the labour force shrinks, and employers are out there trying to find people, it becomes tougher and tougher and tougher. So you take on the marketing stance in terms of how you attract people. You have to market and deliberately and purposefully retain. So it changes how you go about your work.
It also creates an upward pressure on wages. This is the Alberta phenomenon from the perspective of they have a huge number of jobs that are available and very few workers.
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So you're in a bidding war with the guy down the road, and you get the $150,000 truck driver or the $16 an hour Starbucks employee, that kind of stuff.
We have a greying workforce, as the numbers indicated. That means you have to change how you do business in your place of work. You have to adjust to the fact that, for example, in our health care system, as the nursing population becomes older, you have to think about how you adjust the workplace in order to account for that issue.
So what do we need to do? We need to increase participation of older workers. It may be a positive thing for me to think about Freedom 55, it may not be a positive thing for an employer to think about that, they may think more about "Freedom 75", as far as I'm concerned.
We need succession management and knowledge transfer. We have to move the knowledge that is going to leave the labour market with increased retirement rates from the people who are leaving to the people who will be staying. If we don't purposely and actively do that we will just simply lose it out the door.
We have to look at immigration, migration and retention. We need to increase immigration, we need to control migration, and we need to have retention, purposeful retention, here in the province.
Literacy and essential skills. Let me just very quickly say that it's not about whether you can read, the number of people who can't read in the province you can probably count on your two hands. What it is, is if you can read to the sufficient level and transfer that to your daily life and to your work life, that is what literacy is about. It's not about, can I actually read, it is about how do I take what I read and then use that in my life.
I think there will be a new dimension in the 21st Century because change is going to come at a more rapid pace than even it does today. We have to move to a thought that literacy may have an additional dimension, and that is the ability to learn, unlearn and relearn as technology and process changes.
So what will happen if we don't do anything about literacy? Well, we'll have limited ability to adapt to the changing labour force requirements and skills expectations in employers. So if you're compromised in your literacy capacity and you introduce an ISO standard, for example, in a manufacturing plant, which increases massively the amount of documentation that you're going to deal with, this has an impact. So the ability of the workforce to adjust to that is compromised.
Upward mobility becomes more difficult in an environment of higher retirement rates. Again, if your literacy is compromised or your essential skills are compromised, you are not going to be able to take your boss's job, because you can't deal with it.
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Labour supply will be limited because the ability to get a job is compromised by your literacy capacity, and as it becomes more complex, it becomes more difficult to become employed. So what to do? Invest in education and skills training, and the key word here is it is an investment, not an expense; this is a message for employers, for the public, for government - it's an investment.
The Nova Scotia School for Adult Learning is one of the investments that the government has moved to, a school of 5,000 in the province, bigger than St. F.X., bigger than Acadia, I like to say, and it provides the opportunity for people to get their high school graduation, and it's offered in 140 places across the province.
Workplace space training is going to become ever more important. What I mean by that is actually taking education into the workplace and delivering education in the workplace, because people are not going to be able to take time off from work; as the workforce shrinks, they can't take time off from work to go back to school, we have to bring the school to them.
Community-based learning will become evermore important - this is my apples and trees comment - if the family is compromised in its literacy capacity, trust me, the children will be also. So we have to take it into the community and deal with parents and children at the same time, not separately.
Changing nature of work, I've already spoken a little bit about this, the three things that cause it - technology and process change, failure to invest in capital, and attraction of business skills that are not currently in the workplace. What will happen? We will again have underemployment. People will not be able to move up the employment chain.
Barriers for the unemployed, again, more difficult to attach to the labour market because the requirement for skill and literacy is greater and greater and greater, and the inability to find the right people for the job. What to do? Invest in skills, upgrading and lifelong learning by businesses. Businesses need to get the message that this is not a government function exclusively, it is a partnership between business and government.
We will continue with the transition office process which we started, actually, 10 years ago but has become slightly more public in the last year or so with the closure of Maple Leaf Foods, Moirs, and Trenton Works. What we try to do with transition offices is put them into the job site which is closing out in order to facilitate the movement of that human resource immediately back into the labour market, rather than just have it fritter away and disappear into the system, to actively view it as a resource for the province and to do something about it. We'll need to collaborate with business to provide skills training. Again, this is not a government function, this is a partnership with business.
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Just-in-time training by education providers for business needs. This is going to be the reaction that the education system will have to have to that changing process and technology. My illustration for that to you would be the composite fabricator, which actually is a new occupation in its current form with the specialty products, Kevlar, and all this kind of stuff. A business comes to us and says they can't find the skill in your workplace, so what can you do about it? We actually go in and establish a training program for those types of people, kind of a just- in-time delivery of needed training.
Adjustment of program and curriculum to meet workforce needs and demands - so as NSBI comes through the door with a new type of business, we need to know before they come through the door because we might have to do something with Dal in order to change a curriculum or change a program or do something else which provides workforce training.
Productivity, curtailed investment in private sector research - if we don't do something about productivity increased production costs, which means costs to business goes up, that makes us less competitive. What do we do? We can do things as simple as raise the literacy rate in the province by 1 per cent per year, go back to my Nova Scotia School for Adult Learning. If we were to do that, that gives you 2.5 times in GDP gain - what a simple answer this is.
Offer incentive for capital investment - we need to move to incenting our businesses to buy into capital. Invest in research and innovation, invest in global marketing. Encourage employers in investing in on-the-job training, and militate against the fractional cost of retirement. It costs money to have big retirement in your businesses - trust me, turnover is a costly event.
Employer adaptation, which I think is probably at the end going to be our saviour or our Achilles heel in this question - increased employee turnover due to the changing nature of work, and what I'm talking about here in terms of the changing nature of work, at Mount Allison I had the opportunity to address 80 professors or so on Friday night and there was a spectrum, there was a brand new prof and one that had been there for 30 years. What is the difference in the student coming through the door today versus the one coming through the door 20 years ago? Very significant, so employers need to recognize that the nature of the worker coming into the workforce is changing.
Students who graduate today expect to start where I am today, not where I was when I started - where I am today. So the way that sugars out in the employer's mind is the graduate comes through the door and says I want $60,000, $70,000 or $80,000 as a starting salary and I don't want to start in the stockroom and work my way up - I want to start as the vice- president, thank you very much. So is that good or bad? I think that's good because it shows initiative, it shows a willingness to work, but maybe we need to temper the expectation. But you have to actively do that, you just can't say, go away, I'm not going to do that, because you have a labour shortage.
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You have a clash of attitudes, ethics, and values because you have a huge greying workforce and you're bringing young people into the same workplace. You need to be sure that you connect those two things, because they don't think the same way - a 55 year old and 25 year old just don't think the same way today. I'm getting the hook here, so I'm going to quickly round up.
What do we need to do? We need to encourage organizations to become employers of choice, employers need to adapt how they deal with workers, what the societal changes are that are going on around them and the greying workforce - and if you need me, here is how to get me.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry to rush you, but actually Mr. Preyra has to leave us, so I'm going to give some time to Leonard to ask some questions. I know we still have a short presentation from NSBI, so hopefully you'll forgive me and we'll hold yours for a bit. Thank you.
Mr. Preyra.
MR. LEONARD PREYRA: Thank you, Madam Chairman, and thank you very much for the presentations, I found them really very informative and I would like to see the hard copy of the slides at some point, if you could make them available.
[9:45 a.m.]
I have two questions, and one is just a general question. Most of the data relates to looking back on the labour market, and demographics and migration, but some of the data seems to suggest that this is just part of a sort of long-term economic cycle that comes and goes, and some of it suggests it is a pronounced demographic issue that we have to deal with. Looking down the road, what assumptions are you making about the labour market, in particular given that Stu Gourley's presentation seems to assume that this is part of an endemic, long- term shift that we're going to have to deal with - is that the assumption here as well?
MR. RUSHE: I think you have to look at the concept of demographic change and this is sort of one of the underriding factors. Statistics Canada comes out with population projections and we know that for a fact at this moment in time close to 14 per cent, for example, of individuals in Nova Scotia are 65 years of age, and in the next 20-odd years almost one in four will be in that category, so we have this whole age structure change. We have an aging population and a decrease in youth population, so this is something that we have to realize. I think what Stu was saying is the whole attitudinal change has to take place in relation to early retirement or postponed retirement, so it has to come from individuals and also from employers themselves. When you look at that, not just here in Nova Scotia, but globally, developed countries are facing that demographic challenge.
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MR. PREYRA: But the demographic challenge seems fairly straightforward, those implications are pretty clear. What about the economic assumption about what kind of economy we need to prepare for given this fluctuation, which was a 10-year cycle here it seems to be in the data?
MR. JEWERS: I'll just give a quick comment. One of the things that we're doing is we participate with the province in an economic forecasting process called the Canadian Occupational Projection System, where we look at trying to forecast economic and occupational employment levels over the next five to ten years. One of the things that we're looking at is that the job growth will probably be in knowledge-intensive types of activities, and probably service-sector-related activities as well. If I had to suggest as an economist, with the transition that is going on, in terms of employment in Nova Scotia, it looks like we are becoming increasingly a service-sector economy and one that really values high levels of knowledge and education as well, so I think that's where the preparation has to take place. In terms of employers, I think given the fact that we had fairly high unemployment rates 10 years ago, we have to assist in the transition from a buyers' to a sellers' market in terms of a labour market and that, to me, is a fundamental challenge.
MR. GOURLEY: If I could jump in here, Leonard, and answer your question this way. All of the data that you've seen this morning, and even my presentation, is about what is, with some connections to what could be. I see all of this as nothing more than a bug screen on a Cadillac, because I think what you're talking about here is an opportunity to do purposeful and positive things to the economy of Nova Scotia, by doing, I think, primarily two things. One is working with the attraction mechanism to bring in that type of employment which down the road is going to be economically in demand around the world - forget about New Brunswick, let's talk about the world. That's number one and number two, within our own province we need to get our nest in order in terms of providing the types of programs that will support the engagement of a full spectrum of our population in the employment marketplace, and that means also changing the education delivery so that it is responding to what is being brought in as new types of employment.
MR. PREYRA: A quick question on a more specific question. The data looked more at net flows and it broke down into more specific information as far as urban and rural differences. From our outreach and rural areas people have told us that it's not just youth leaving, but older people coming back, and it's not just young people leaving, it's certain types of skilled workers leaving and less skilled workers remaining. Is that in the data as well and how do we deal with those challenges?
MR. RUSHE: In relation to the level of say, educational attainment or skill, it's not collected in this data. The data that would have some content in relation to education levels would be census data, and previous census data, for example, would look at migration patterns like where you lived maybe one year ago or where you were living five years ago,
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and then you could tie that in with relation to occupation or level of education, but it didn't tell you where the individual attained that education.
In 2006 census data, which we just completed last year, the educational variable now asked individuals where they acquired it, so we would be able to see when we look at migration did they get the education here in Nova Scotia, have we lost that because of migration. So the census data is the richest source, but again we have to realize that this is every five years and we had one release of the census, by the time we'd be able to understand or delve into the data and analyze the census data in a more rich manner, it is probably going to be two years down the road. So there is, unfortunately, even though we have technology, we also still have quite a sizeable lag. So at that stage we'll be able to have some sense, but the census data will give it. This particular data that was presented today does not refer to any educational attainment issues.
MR. GOURLEY: You need to go to where the workers are - both geographically as well as in terms of educational skill level attainment. So that means outreach into the workplaces and if you do lose this highly skilled person to Alberta - God forbid - then the person who is coming up needs to be re-skilled, retooled and that's where the education system has to reach out into those workplaces and do that, in association with the employer.
MR. PREYRA: Thank you very much. I'm sorry I'm going to miss your presentation, Mr. Steeves, but I will look at the data.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: We have a copy of the presentation for you. Anyway, thank you very much.
If we could, I'd like to just invite Mr. Steeves to make his shorter presentation from NSBI. I appreciate the indulgence of the committee because we do have more information being presented today than usual.
MR. DARIN STEEVES: Thank you. As I said earlier, my name is Darin Steeves and I am the Corporate Strategist with Nova Scotia Business Inc. I don't have a formal presentation but I thought it would be appropriate to offer some comments based on what our businesses are telling us, both in Nova Scotia and businesses that we talk to outside of the province.
Just by way of quick background statement, NSBI, we work with many partners, many of which are at the table today. Our work and collaboration with partners is all about supporting local businesses and attracting new businesses to the province, which Stu had mentioned in his speech. Wherever we go we do talk to businesses, both in markets around the globe and here on the ground in Nova Scotia. Businesses are telling us that they are seeing a shift, both in the province and externally. They're telling us that it's a different recruitment world than it was five or ten years ago. We have anecdotal evidence from
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companies around, whereas once upon a time they would issue a placement ad and they may receive hundreds of resumés, now they're receiving 20 or 30, perhaps 40. So that's a significant shift from five or ten years ago.
For some businesses they say they can't get the tradespeople and for other firms they're locating around the globe to where the skilled people are. Now we know in a knowledge-based economy that businesses move to the people. Recently we have seen a number of knowledge-based companies expand to Nova Scotia - Research in Motion, CGI, Register.com. Another example is in the financial services sector, which has experienced significant growth here.
In the past eight months we have welcomed some of the leading financial services companies to the province, including Citco Fund Services, Butterfield Fund Services, Olympia Capital, and Marsh.
Defence and aerospace is another industry that has grown. L-3 Communications, IMP, Composites Atlantic, xwave are expanding.
In communities throughout the province we have seen some success and innovation, and I'm thinking here of companies like A.F. Theriault, Advanced Glazings, C-Vision, and Mulgrave Machine Works. These companies have taken what is called a niche approach and capitalized on their strength. That approach allows them to focus and foster success in specific areas, and that means making choices.
As I mentioned, when we talk with businesses the conversation always comes back to the global economy and we cannot lose sight of the fact that we compete globally. So what are we doing about that? Well, we're collaborating. Within Nova Scotia many of us are part of initiatives that are designed to attract and retain talent and maximize our strengths. We're working provincially with education, immigration, economic development and many others.
Let me just elaborate on one example. Most recently, in this calendar school year, we introduced, along with education, a program called Where will IT take you? That program was designed to get high school students thinking about technology and streaming them into IT professions. There's a growing awareness around technology and the jobs of tomorrow, which a question earlier referenced. Business Week magazine reported on the top jobs for the coming decade in a recent edition. They said that four of the five top jobs over the next decade will be IT-related - more and more IT is the base of jobs across many sectors, for example, eHealth.
If we think of the farming industry, we can see how IT benefits that sector. So farmers can now link to the Agricultural College over the Internet to analyze and monitor butterfat content. This allows farmers to manage the feed they give their livestock, in turn, helping to
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keep the quality of milk consistent. That helps farms work productively. Of course that's an example we would not have heard about 10 or 15 years ago.
Now what do we see on the horizon? Well, one, globalization is going to continue; two, technology is going to continue to advance and actually advance at a faster pace than it has up to now. It will be the basis of more and more business no matter what sector. So knowledge, as my colleagues around the table have mentioned today, will be key to business growth, and that very technology will be at the heart of their competitiveness in the global economy. We can never forget that as technology advances, businesses need the skilled people who know how to put it to work. Businesses we talk to know that technology and people will continue to be key to competing and winning in this globalized economy. Thank you.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. Mr. Steeves, I appreciate that. Now we'll go to the committee members. I know there are probably many questions. We have at least 10 minutes per person. I think if we do a round of 10 minutes there will be a little bit of time left at the end. Who would like to start? Mr. Epstein, I thought you looked interested.
MR. HOWARD EPSTEIN: Well, I was going to stand aside just because Leonard started out, but I'm happy to jump in and I guess we have a fair bit of time.
Thank you very much for the presentations, they were very interesting and I think very helpful, and it's clearly a topic that we have to pay a lot of attention to.
I'd like to tell you briefly what I heard from you and see if I got it right, and then I have some questions. The first thing I think I heard was that we have a problem when it comes to thinking about the overall position of the labour market in Nova Scotia.
The second thing I heard is that there's potential for the problem to worsen if the natural trends that have emerged from the stats that are available to us over the last decade and more continue without change.
One of the third things I heard was that the gains, if there have been any, have been significant much more in HRM, that is the main urban area of Nova Scotia, that is, again, in population, lower unemployment levels and so on, and that the growth as well, of course, has been in the service sector compared with the goods sector. I link those two because it seems to me that what emerged from your points here was that as the service sector employment increased, so did employment in the urban areas, which is more the locus of the service sector, and it is the rural areas that one would probably normally look to as being kind of - given Nova Scotia's relative lack of a really advanced manufacturing economy and more resource-based where our goods sector would be. So there's been decline there. So I link those two.
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The fourth one I heard was that in terms of a focus on population, retaining youth and retaining international migrants is quite an important aspect of what we have to focus on. I guess maybe another point is that level of education is really a key government potential policy area, that is dealing with either literacy, as broadly defined for us by Mr. Gourley, or dealing, in general, with making available education through our community colleges and through our universities, it seemed to me, it sounded from what you said, that was really important.
That's generally what I heard. I hope that this, as reflected back, sounds to you more or less what you were trying to tell us. If not, I'd be happy to be corrected.
Now I'm going to point out something that I think I also heard here, and this perhaps strays onto other ground. The first thing was this, that when it was pointed out to us that there had been an increase in overall numbers of employed people, say the 1999 period on, I think it was Mr. Rushe who pointed out, that there was kind of a big increase in numbers of employment from 1999-2000 up to 2006. Those numbers, actually, one hears from the government that when they lay claim to having made advances in terms of employment in Nova Scotia they point to 35,000 to 40,000 new jobs created since they first came to power in 1999. A number that jumped out of the presentation, to me, was that the increase in employment in call centres, I think we were told that in that same period the increase was from 7,000 people up to 28,000. What that means is another 21,000 people working in call centres in Nova Scotia and, if that's right, then what that means is that somewhere between 50 per cent and 65 per cent of the new jobs in Nova Scotia since 1999 have been in call centres.
[10:00 a.m.]
Now if that's the case, then we are enormously, enormously dependent on that sector. We have been enormously dependent on that particular function since 1999, and this is an observation I've made on a few other occasions, and I have to say that's scary because, for the most part, call centres are here because of the subsidies that the government offers them, they're highly mobile jobs, they're the kind of businesses that could be located virtually anywhere in the world, all you need is a good phone system and that's about it, and they're mostly here not because they are Nova Scotia companies but because they're offered subsidies. So I'm very worried that we haven't expanded into other sectors. I understand what Mr. Steeves said about attracting new jobs in the finance and defence and aerospace sectors, along with one or two others, but those numbers are really small compared with what it is that we're looking at in call centres.
So my first question is this. I wonder if there are any sectors or individual kinds of employment that you think are more critical than others. One hears, for example, about potential and looming shortages in nursing, looming shortages in school teachers, and it's easy to understand why these are identified. There's a fair degree of unionization, there tends
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to be essentially one employer, or very few employers, who are involved there, lots of stats are known about the age profile of that workplace, lots is known about the number of students who are studying to be teachers or studying to be nurses in advance, and we can kind of look at the aging population and make projections, so one hears a lot about that. I'm wondering first, whether you agree that those are particularly difficult sectors or whether there are any others that you would point to as being highly critical? So can we start with that. Are there other priorities? You've given us general observations, you've said demographics are a big problem, transformation of the workplace is a big problem, productivity is a big problem and so on, but what about particular sectors, are there any that we should be focusing on more than others, or that are the most urgent, I guess, the priority ones?
MR. JEWERS: The only caution I would have off the top is that when I spoke about call centre activities embedded in business support services, so we don't have a clear indication of what the actual level of call centre activity is, but it is a major part of business support services and it has been growing significantly, but that's quite a mixture of activities, too. I mean, there's quite a mixture of activities that are related to providing contact service industry, as well.
To me, in terms of specific activities, I think when you mentioned health as an example, that is an area that I think is a priority area, particularly, the NSBI representative mentioned the technological aspects of health provision as well, and making sure that we have good quality skills and high levels of knowledge intensity in terms of delivering some of the technological needs of health.
MR. EPSTEIN: So it's not just nurses, it's all health care workers?
MR. JEWERS: No, I think it's all health care. The other thing, I guess that translates over to manufacturing, as well. Making sure that we have knowledge-intensive workers to develop those specialized areas of manufacturing I think that are going to grow over time, as well. I think it's pretty apparent that some of our manufacturing that's related to the traditional goods we've produced in the province is under some challenges, as it is around the world. I think it means we take a look at making sure that we have the skills to deal with those specialized manufacturing niches that are projected to grow over time, as well.
MR. EPSTEIN: Any particular ones you have in mind?
MR. JEWERS: I'm thinking as an example, plastic composites. Some of the technology related to that. Maybe specialized food production is an example. I'm thinking of some of the higher-end activities that are related to some of the more specialized manufacturing that relates back to skills.
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MR. EPSTEIN: Okay, so this nudges us gently in the direction of some of the manufacturing sector, but this, it doesn't, to my mind, pick out any particular kind of line of work. So I take it that you don't think there's one sector that's in more of a crisis than anyone else, it's all pretty bad.
MR. JEWERS: No, I wouldn't say that, I just don't have the information to be able to say that we have a particular line that's under any pressure.
MR. EPSTEIN: Okay, fair enough. Anyone else on this?
MR. STEEVES: Perhaps I can offer a comment on the contact centre. To address the contact centre question, I know you mentioned 28,000, but I think a more accurate number is about, I'm going to say 19,000, thereabouts, and there probably are about 50 contact centres in the province, give or take. I can speak to our strategy. At NSBI we're now five years old, and in the early years, as the numbers said earlier, with an unemployment rate of 12 or 13 percent, it was about jobs. Over time, we have continued to refine our value prop, and if you look at - and I'm just referencing here specifically the attraction companies over the last three years, it has been more IT-based, defence and aerospace and, most recently, in the financial services sector.
The common theme among all of those sectors, it's the skilled and knowledgeable workforce that we have. When our team is on the road, when we're targeting companies and selling or telling the Nova Scotia story, frankly it is all about the skill set that we have in the province - the 11 degree-granting universities, 13 community college campuses. That resonates regardless of sector, because as we continue to move in a knowledge direction, it's about the people. I don't know if that answers . . .
MR. EPSTEIN: That is helpful. I have to say that I agree completely that in the communities that have been the host communities for the call centres, the jobs were very necessary and very welcome, but my perspective and my point was that given the fact that these companies came here from somewhere else, for the most part, and could equally go somewhere else, since there's a North American and international bidding war to offer subsidies to them in one form or another and they are very mobile, I think that we would be well advised to think of this as an interim emergency strategy rather than necessarily a fundamental of our long-term building of jobs. If it turns out to be otherwise, that would be wonderful, but I think they're precarious, these jobs. I think that's the way I would put it.
MR. STEEVES: Perhaps I can offer two comments on that. Recently, within the last year, there was a contact centre in Liverpool that, because of a corporate decision, consolidated those jobs, not offshore, actually, but it was within the North American footprint, if you will, within six months that centre was filled. Why was that? Well, one, we had a community that was focused on let's make this happen together; two, it was the infrastructure that was there and; three, it was the skilled workforce that was there. The
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company that came and took that over were very impressed with the training that had gone on and what they were going to get in terms of skills sets.
My second point on that would be, if you look at the contact centres that have come in the last five or six years, the most recent expansions of contact centres have actually been from companies that are here and like what they see and have expanded. I'm thinking of examples like HRG, like ADP, like Acrobat Research would have a centre in Canso and have moved to Cheticamp. So they get here, they like what they see, they get the employers they like, so this has been some expansion.
MR. EPSTEIN: Okay, fair enough, we'll leave that, thanks. I actually have a question for Mr. Gourley. It has to do with the transitions. (Interruption) Oh, I'm sorry, am I past my time?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes, you really are. Could I interrupt you and you could save it?
MR. EPSTEIN: I'm sure I'll get a second round, that's fine.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes, thank you. I'd like to invite Mr. Theriault to ask some questions.
MR. HAROLD THERIAULT: Thank you. When I don't talk for a while I seize up, but I'll get going here in a minute.
This is very interesting, very interesting. I could go back here 15 generations in this province and start, but I won't. I'm going to come ahead quite a ways to this past generation and I'm going to speak about my daughter who, for the past 10 years, has struggled in this province to try to get a job. She went to college - talking about education - for four years for recreational management for children. So when she came out, there was no way she could get a job in recreational management for children because the children were declining. I said, Kris, you have to look to the elderly people, the elderly are coming on, the baby boomers are going to get big, you have to get into recreational management of seniors. So, anyway, she got a part-time job in the Yarmouth area, in the Digby area, for four or five years, a couple of days a week was all she could get after four years of college in recreational management.
A couple of years ago, one of the senior homes told her, Krista, go get more education for recreational management for seniors, just what we talked about. Back to college she went, she got some more education last year, she came out and applied, she applied all over this province for a job in recreational management for seniors - no job. She said, Dad, I have to do something, I'm 32 years old. So she applied out West, out in Victoria, three places. Within 24 hours they all responded to her, bidding for her, a retirement area in Victoria, B.C.
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Here we are, trying to become a retirement area, everybody believes this is a great retirement area. We have grandparents down in Digby talking about leaving to go to Alberta to live with their children, and to go to Victoria to live with their children, and to go to Ontario to live with their children. I get calls every day down there from 65- to 85- year-old people asking, Junior, am I going to have a doctor if I get sick? The medicare is going down hill so bad down there I have to go, my children are asking me to come out West and live with them. This is what is going on with the medicare in this province.
Here we are with millions of baby boomers coming on with millions and millions and billions of dollars, and we're even driving the baby boomers away because we have no medical system, none in Digby. We used to, we used to have a surgeon down there. That disappeared. We watched the population drop. We used to be able to have babies there, we watched the population drop when that stopped. Now they're talking about the ER, and here are your 65- to 85-year-old people going out West where their children are. Why aren't we putting medical in for baby boomers to come and retire in this province, which could make it a booming province, why aren't we building medical stations around this province to service the baby boomers? They don't give a damn about education, they're 65 years old, but they have the money and they'll come here and live and they'll drive that service sector from 70 per cent to 100 per cent.
Can you answer that one, about the medicare of this province? Is there any economic plan to build a medical system for the baby boomers who are going to retire, who we want to retire in this province? Is there any plan?
MR. GOURLEY: Right quick I can answer you. I have no idea. See, this says Department of Education. I am going to say this, I need to go back to your daughter for a second, I think that part of what is occurring and what occurred with your daughter, in effect, you were probably just a little bit ahead of the game in giving her the advice that you did, so that's a good thing, but I think the employers didn't recognize what they were looking at in terms of characteristics, experience and training. That's one of the things that we have to work with with the employers. In terms of location, or the growth of the health care system in the province, I really can't go there. I don't know if anybody else wants to.
MR. THERIAULT: Nobody else wants to, either, in this province, including the Premier.
[10:15 a.m.]
MADAM CHAIRMAN: I wonder, Mr. Steeves, if you have any comment, based on your recruitment efforts, when you're talking to companies coming here, if that's an issue, or one of the selling points or drawbacks?
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MR. STEEVES: I can't really speak directly to the question about the health care, but let me say this, quality of life is very important, very important, but when a company looks to Nova Scotia or looks to jurisdictions of what makes sense, it's in the top 10, but it's not in the top one, two, or three in terms of the criteria that they look for.
[10:15 a.m.]
Number one is almost always people - can I get the people to match what I'm looking for. Where it comes into play though, the quality of life, is acquiring the people. The people care about the quality of life. So I want to distinguish between what a business looks for and what a potential employee would look for. So a business, again, it is quality of life, yes, it's there, but it is seven, eight, nine, ten on the criteria list; number one is always the people. When a person considers coming back to the province, that's when the quality of life plays a much bigger role. I can't directly answer the question on the health care issue, that's outside of my mandate.
MR. THERIAULT: Health care is one of biggest businesses in this province. We're using half our budget now to run health care that doesn't work.
MR. STEEVES: I offered up in comments just a quick comment about eHealth. The globe is moving toward that, delivery of services via electronics. In fact, at the most recent Export Achievement Awards six weeks ago, a gentleman from the Brain Repair Centre offered up an example of what they're doing and how they're delivering services completely via the Internet. It was very refreshing to see, but what it signalled is this is the way the world is going, not just Nova Scotia, because whatever happens here is completely contingent on what happens globally. So does that partially answer the question, maybe a bit?
MR. THERIAULT: I would like to touch on one more thing, too, before I'm done. You mentioned farming in here, you brought that up with technology. You never mentioned fishery, the fishery that built this province, built this country. Nova Scotia, being down in the fishery, is still one of the best provinces in Canada for fishing, and could be much better, but we have problems. We have had problems for the last 10 to 15 years, and the biggest out- migration you'll find, I don't know if you have the statistics, but I'll bet you 75 per cent of those people came out of the fishing industry. If you want to research that, you'll probably find that in rural areas of Nova Scotia. That could be brought back again if the right people in Ottawa would listen, and the right people in Ottawa would make the move to do so, we could bring a business back to this province like it was before 20 years ago. It has been done in other countries, but where would that workforce come again, like you said.
We have a call centre in Digby right now, Cornwallis, that is looking for 200 people, and they can't find them. Every day there are more and more of these people leaving who are not suited to sitting at a desk and answering the phone with somebody upset, they're not prepared for that. I don't care how much education you get, when if you have to deal with
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people on the phone growling at you all day, they don't want to do that. They would rather dig in the oil sands or dig in gravel somewhere, the labour force, and they come from the fishery, they are labour people, but most of them are out West. So even if we could bring the fishery back, which we could, I know we could - other countries have done it, it's just a matter of making them believe this in Ottawa, I guess - where would we ever return a labour force from for the fishery sector alone? Where would that ever come from?
MR. GOURLEY: Well, those who leave will come back, is one question. Two, I won't even go near Ottawa, particularly today. Three, the type of fishery that would come back would be much different than that which existed prior.
One of the most encouraging things that I've seen in the fishery over the last little while is the change to harvesting different kinds of things. I think we need to recognize in the province that the fishery is not gum boots on the wharf anymore, it's a much different industry and profession than it was, and it is a profession more than it ever was before, and that recognition has to work its way into our system as well. Get on a trawler these days and there are more electronics on it than Carter's got liver pills. So it is a changed environment, and when we bring people back into that environment we need to make darn good and sure they are ready to deal with that when they show up on the dock, and that's the role that I have in terms of changing that kind of thing.
The development of the harvesting of sea urchins or the big worms, slugs - I can't remember what they're called, but you know what I'm talking about - which you used to chuck overboard, that's a whole different kind of harvesting process and sales and marketing than we've ever experienced before. We will have to change that and it will take time, it won't happen very quickly, and we have another brother that needs to come along in Ottawa, there's no question about it.
MR. STEEVES: Perhaps I can offer just a comment on that. I reference the farming example because I think what that illustrates is a foundation sector that has and needs to continue to look at how do we change. It's an ecosystem. I kind of chuckled when Stu was up talking about lifelong learning. My first degree was in biology - I don't know what I was thinking, but I quickly got out of that because I didn't want to work at a lab, for me personally. But what I learned, what stuck with me was the ecosystem and whatever happens in one part of the ecosystem impacts something completely on the other side of it, so everything is in equilibrium. So if you accept that, then those who don't change and adapt are at risk. The farming industry, by moving down that technology, looking at how can we do things better and more effectively is very, very important.
There was a comment offered up last week by - Annette, and her last name escapes me right now - the head of Home Depot for Canada, who is now in charge of opening up the China market. She was in Halifax last week speaking at a conference and I didn't see her there, but I read the article in the paper following that. It struck me that there are few people
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in China who do their own personal home renovations - and why? Because labour is so cheap they pay others to do it - it struck me that the Chinese are paying others to do that for them. So if you think of that in the context of the cheap labour relative to other jurisdictions around the globe and what impact that has had on them, fishing certainly is one that has been impacted by it.
Back to Stu's point that those who are successful have invested in technology and have continued to move up to stay competitive, and if they don't they are at risk in the long term of not being here.
MR. JEWERS: I'll just make one comment. Actually employment levels in fish harvesting have remained relatively stable over the last few years, and the labour force survey numbers show there hasn't been a dramatic decline in fishing, it has been relatively stable at about 8,000 over the last three or four years.
MR. THERIAULT: It could grow a lot more, but I won't get into that right now.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Theriault. Mr. Bain, did you have some questions for the witnesses today?
MR. KEITH BAIN: Yes, thank you, Madam Chairman, and I thank you very much for your presentation, it was very informative.
I just want to see if I'm correct in my some of my assumptions. You quoted in 1997-98 there was an out-migration of over 2,500 individuals, and it was okay from then until 2005, where we know people are going to Alberta. I guess for my own satisfaction, that 1997-98 number, would that be as a result specifically of the closing of the coal mines and the steel industry in Cape Breton? It would be around that time frame.
MR. RUSHE: Again, it's very reflective of the business cycle in a sense that if you look at the early 1990s, where there was a global recession and there's always a lag associated with this because people are eternally hopeful that things will improve again, so in a sense that we went through a pretty difficult economic time during that mid- to latter part of the 1990s, the economic climate was not that healthy in Nova Scotia so people were looking elsewhere. In a sense, in relation to specific industries closing, we can just make assumptions or try to give some correlation, but we can't say for certain that this is the result of a, b, and c, happening.
MR. BAIN: Also, you said that 50 per cent of the immigrants destined for Nova Scotia either don't arrive, or they leave, am I correct in my assumption on that?
MR. RUSHE: Some studies have indicated that particularly in the immigrants who came in the early 1990s, because of course they were coming here, the economic climate, the
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opportunities were not that great for them, so some studies have indicated that close to 50 per cent of immigrants, in fact, leave.
What you have to remember is that when an immigrant is given a destination they may declare Nova Scotia as their destination point, but they could get off a plane in Toronto or Montreal and never actually arrive here. So it is hard - you can't make them go, but in fact through the whole process of applying for immigration they may have said Nova Scotia was their province of destination but some do not actually arrive, or they may come - a lot of immigrants, not just here in Nova Scotia but right across Canada, they will look and within the first two years that's when they engage in their secondary out-migration.
MR. BAIN: So what can we do to keep them here?
MR. RUSHE: Well we have, in fact - I can't really speak to what the Office of Immigration is doing but if you look at the figures over the last two or three years since we've had the Office of Immigration and the Provincial Nominee Program, we've seen an increase in the number of immigrants coming. So in the sense of how do you keep them here, I think we often talk about quality of life and making it a welcome environment, but it's quite interesting that the face of immigrants is changing. When you look at where immigrants choose to settle, they tend to choose the MTV syndrome - Montreal, Toronto, and Vancouver - because of the cultural networks there. So in the sense that building up of cultural networks I think is one way of establishing it, because people like to identify with their same cultural groups.
MR. GOURLEY: Can I jump into that one? In terms of immigrants coming to Nova Scotia, let's for just half a second go back to Harold's daughter and the difficulty she had getting a job. Now turn that around and make it an immigrant's daughter, in terms of the ability for the employer to actually engage with these folks. One of the critical, critical issues in retaining an immigrant here is they've got to get a job. If they don't get a job, they're not any smarter or more foolish than our own folks, they'll go somewhere else to get a job because they need to support their families.
Employers need to change how they think about immigrants and how they engage them in their workplaces. We have a fairly significant number of tradespeople - female tradespeople - who have gone through training, gotten their certification and no longer practice in their certification because once they got to the workplace they weren't well received at all. The same thing happens to folks coming into this work environment from other countries. So one of the major things that the Office of Immigration and ourselves are undertaking is going to employers and saying there needs to be a cultural change in your workplace in order to accept immigrants on the work site. So that's number one.
Number two - bridging to work for immigrants is a critical piece of the puzzle. When Harold's daughter is looking for a job she has a network, it starts right there with Dad. When
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an immigrant comes here they have nothing, they don't even know where the bus stop is, never mind where the employers are. So we need to bridge them, we need to purposely and actively bridge them into the labour market, and if we don't do that, then again they'll move somewhere else, no job. So bridging to work and cultural shift in employers.
MR. BAIN: Okay, since you're talking, Stu, I'm going to go with the education side of it even further, I guess. A lot of the immigrants who arrive don't have English, so what are we doing to educate these people in English as a second language, both at the adult and at the childhood level?
[10:30 a.m.]
MR. GOURLEY: Well, there's a fair bit of money actually invested in English as a second language, both by the federal and provincial government, but when you start to peel the onion back what you find out is you don't necessarily have as much of a question around English as a second language as you do with occupational English, so the technical terms that exist within an occupation - and you have accent issues. So we need to start thinking about accent reduction programs, and in fact the Office of Immigration is going to be piloting an accent reduction program in September because that's a key, key issue.
The other piece of the immigrant question of course is credential recognition, but that's equally as important to the guy from Ontario. If you're a teacher educated in Ontario, you go through exactly the same credential recognition issues as a teacher from Britain or from India or from anywhere. You have to come into the system, you have to apply to the registrar of teachers' certification, you go through the whole standards process and on it goes. So that credential recognition piece has to be dealt with.
MR. BAIN : The other two questions I'm going to ask are very broad, and any or all can jump in. I want to know if we're simply at the mercy of a globalized economy, or do we, in Nova Scotia, have a competitive advantage when we're looking at it?
MR. GOURLEY: You're only at the mercy of something if you let yourself be at the mercy of something - my own view of it. I think we have the opportunity in Nova Scotia to take ourselves by the bootstraps and say okay, we're going to go in this direction, we're going to raise our literacy rates, we're going to encourage education and support education as writ large, as a foundational piece to economic growth, we're going to move to a more productive society, and we're going to do that through the following steps.
If you let yourself just go, I mean your own career, if you just let it go it'll just go wherever it goes. But if you purposely make a decision that okay, we're going to do this and we're going to take these steps - I mean we talk about the Celtic Tiger, Ireland, and all of the other crap aside in terms of tax reductions and elimination of taxes, put that all aside, the single greatest issue that they addressed was 25 years ago they made a decision that we are
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going to be the best in Europe. They did that through investing in their education system and going forward from there. They made a purposeful decision about where they were going to go and that was, in my opinion, the single, critical thing that they did.
Yes, they did tax reductions, but that was after the growth started - it wasn't before the growth started, it was after. So if you let it go, guess what will happen? You'll get what you got. But if you don't, if you make decisions about - you know we got coal up here in Nova Scotia, it's our biggest rock, I think, coal, and what are we doing with it? Are we doing research around how to use coal in clean ways? Are we finding places where we could use coal in a more effective and environmentally friendly way? You have to make purposeful decisions about where you're going to go.
We've got the Tar Ponds - Love Canal, you probably remember that, I just barely remember it - here's an opportunity, yes, it's a disaster but it's also an opportunity if we can develop the kinds of technology to clean these things up, believe me there are a lot of places around the world that would buy that. So when we see our educational institutions trying to expand more into educating more teachers and more nurses, that's maybe a good thing, maybe not, but why isn't somebody running down that environmental technology road as an opportunity to grow a new kind of business? It's about the new kinds of businesses, it's about IT.
Technology isn't just IT. I sat with a young lady the other day in the airport in Ottawa. She was a government employee and her husband is a fairly large potato farmer in P.E.I., and she's talking about the plow behind the tractor having two GPS thingies on it - that's my techno - in order for him to be able to track exactly where he is on the field and to keep that plow exactly level, so that he doesn't get erosion. Now imagine.
I go back to my wife's grandfather who has a farm in New Brunswick and he's giving me his plow that the horse used to draw. It's not all that long ago, so the inculcation of technology into every aspect - we talked about it with fisheries - is key. So why are we not moving in the direction of technology, writ large, not just IT in terms of computer systems and things like that? I'll get off my soapbox now.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: I'm going to pass it to Ms. Conrad, so she has 10 minutes as well. Thank you.
MS. VICKI CONRAD: Thank you - interesting presentations, good stats and it's good to see that there is a working together between departments - the Department of Economic Development, and Education and, of course, Labour.
I just want to start off with my day yesterday, because my day was very interesting and it actually applies to some of our discussion here. The first part of my day saw me at an opening of a community garden. This community garden was set up through the adult
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resource and learning centre in Liverpool, where many young and older adults are brushing up on their literacy skills and other skills sets. So for this group of people, opening up this community garden was a really big day for them. They were really happy that I was there because they wanted to tell me a few things, that being that they were proud about developing these new skills sets and they were hoping that the community would really kind of group around this community garden at some point when the garden kind of got more productive over the coming months.
Some of the comments they made, too, was that they were quite concerned that they weren't able to buy local produce at a reasonable price, they didn't have accessibility to food product. Some of these young and older adults are also looking for work. Other comments they made were that they were very concerned about the food security, in general, not just that they can't afford perhaps local product or have a hard job accessing food when they need it, but they were also very much concerned about the bigger picture of our food security.
A couple of people commented that they recognize that food security is just not about local food sources, it's about a bigger picture, and if something were to happen in the world, as we saw in 9/11, borders could be shut down for a period of time and that could certainly have an impact on our food security here. So they asked me what we were doing about that, and I really didn't have any real answers other than to encourage them to keep that discussion happening, and I also encouraged them to talk to local producers and to encourage buy local. So that was an interesting start to my day.
The next person I encountered in my day was a 53-year-old gentleman who is currently on workers' compensation. He was a truck driver and incurred an injury while at work. He is going through a 16-week job search program with Workers' Compensation. He has a Grade 7 education, however, a very productive member of society for a number of years up until this injury. He is very concerned - because after this 16-week job search program, if he doesn't find a job in his field, and because his physical limitations will enable him only to be driving a truck and not actually doing any other physical labour outside of that truck - that he is going to be without a job because he doesn't have the updated training that he needs to get back into an eighteen-wheeler. His question to me was, where can I get some much-needed upgrading so that I can actually find a job, because if I don't, I will lose my workers' compensation and, ultimately, I'll be looking to Community Services for a pay cheque at the end of the day?
At the end of the day, I was sitting around a table in my office with eight young leaders in my community from Grade 11 and Grade 12. A couple of those students were getting ready to move on to university. Many of these young leaders, out of the eight, most were student council reps, one was the president of our local high school, one was the president of our local key club, and they had many, many concerns.
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We started discussion, and they were telling me what all of the positive and negative things were about our particular community and some of the needs they were hoping to see in terms of improvement. They went on to talk about their education, their post-secondary education, and their dreams and goals. All of the eight have no plans to stay in Nova Scotia at all after post-secondary. All but two are going to be pursuing university in other provinces, and all of them are going to be looking for employment elsewhere because they really feel that there is nothing here for them after they pursue their dreams. So that was really disheartening to hear eight young leaders in my community telling me that next year and the year after these eight young people will be leaving, but leaving for long periods of time. All of them said that if they could they would love to be able to say that they could find a job here in Nova Scotia - actually two did say, no, we're not coming back at all, it doesn't matter if there's anything here.
What was interesting were their concerns in the bigger picture. When we asked them what the most pressing issues that they felt we had to, as adult leaders, start looking at seriously - because they are the future and they will be the young adults in the next couple of years - their top concerns were the environment, global instability because of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, equality and equalization. Interestingly enough, they told us that a lot of discussion has been happening around equalization in the province and they are very much aware of discussions around the accord. The fourth on their agenda was health concerns, education and poverty. One young chap said to me . . .
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Pardon, I'm just wondering if you have a question and the only reason is that you've had your 10 minutes. I'm not trying to rush you because it is interesting.
MS. CONRAD: Okay. So I guess my question is, we do have a lot of concerns that our youth are raising. They have different priorities than we have sometimes. If we were asking an aging population they would be saying the top priority would be health. I really liked your comments, Stu, around environmental technologies because I think we really do need to have a purpose and I think we do need to be purposeful in our decision making, and really start thinking outside the box. There is opportunity here for good economic growth, to be tying that in with new education priorities for young people to be jumping on that new technology bandwagon. I'm hoping that Nova Scotia Business Inc., in your global excursions attracting not only businesses here but people with those types of skills sets, that we are thinking outside of the box and bringing environmental technologies into the province or if we're not, starting from the ground up. So could you fill me in on what some of those global excursions may look like in terms of bringing environmental technologies back here or building them from the ground up?
MR. GOURLEY: I've got to jump in on this one. That WCB person, you tell him to call 424-0882 and talk to Bobby Boudreau because you have a legitimate concern, a Grade
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7 person at 53 years of age, we're not looking at a good prospect. That person needs to get into the NSSAL system quickly.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Mr. Steeves.
MR. STEEVES: You asked about the environmental technologies piece. I want to come back to what Stu said to a question earlier about just broadly technology. I don't want us to lose sight of the fact that when we talk about technology and IT, it's not about IT and technology in the vertical, it's not programming - it may be programming, but it's IT and technology across every sector. We talked about farming as an example, fisheries as an example, we're going to see more and more of that over time. The challenge will be to ensure that we have that workforce that is skilled to take advantage of that. I just wanted to offer that up.
In terms of the environmental technologies, we're moving in a direction, there's no question, globally, we are moving in a direction. For us, when we look at opportunities we try to reconcile two things, one is what is happening globally, so you have to understand what the challenges are, where the world is going; on the other hand you have to look at what we call asset mapping. What do we in the province have that could help us take advantage of whatever is happening there?
In my opening remarks I talked about information technology. Well, there are certain things happening in the information technology field that we have wonderful assets that fit. I talked about defence in aerospace, things happening globally here. We have 40 per cent of the Canadian military assets here in the province, it's a fit, there's something there.
[10:45 a.m.]
I believe what we're going to see is more around the environmental piece. I can't say right now that we have that figured out because frankly, we don't, but over time we have to continue to think where the opportunity is. He's looking at it from two perspectives, one is the attraction piece which is public, it gets more media attention, et cetera, but it may be that it is on the development within the province. I'm not sure if I really answered your question, but it is something that we're starting to think about and we are moving in that direction, but I can't say that we have it fully understood now.
MS. CONRAD: That tells me at least where you are and where things could go.
MR. STEEVES: At the end of the day it has to be market driven. Let me just give you one example that stood out in my mind. NovaKnowledge is an organization here in the province that has been around for probably 10 years or so and their mandate is the knowledge economy. A year ago this past fall they had a conference where they launched their most recent report card. There was a gentleman from Irving who came and talked about an
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opportunity that they were working on, it was a wallboard plant, a gypsum plant in Saint John, and how the focus of that plant was around a green plant driven by the market. The market themselves were saying, if you don't have this green certification we don't want your product. So that market was saying, if you can produce this type of wallboard and there are certain criteria that have to be met, we'll buy it and not only will we buy it, but we'll buy it at a premium price. In my mind, that was a signal to say okay, there is something real here and if a company like Irving is looking at those opportunities, over time there will continue to be more examples like that.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you. I have just a few questions, myself, if that's fine with the committee and then we have one piece of business, so I'd like you to look at the letter that we have received from Stephen McNeil, which is before you, just so we can have a quick discussion on that at the end of the meeting. So, I'll just ask a few questions, 10 minutes at the most.
I wanted to ask Mr. Gourley about something that I feel is important in the province and that is the level of professionalism among our human resource specialists in Nova Scotia. The stories I hear, some of which were said today, show me that they are not as forward thinking or as much on the cutting edge as their contemporaries across the country. They're not recognizing the needs, they're not responding as well to immigrants or to opening their doors to training and that sort of thing. Are there any efforts being made to improve that?
I'll just give you one example that I thought was awful recently of a young woman just graduating from university here in Nova Scotia who has now gone to Ontario. She spent months looking here in this province and with one of our largest employers, one of our biggest companies, had seven interviews only to be told that they decided to hire internally. That was the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't think anybody should have to go through seven interviews to prove that they're capable and have the right skills. I hear of three for senior positions sometimes, but seven and then you decide you're going to hire internally? To me that is horrible management and you've sent a signal to a young person that you're just wasting their time.
That young person went to Ontario for a week, had something like seven interviews lined up and came home to decide which of the four offers she'd like to choose. This follows the story of Mr. Theriault's daughter finding a job very quickly. I just feel we're not at all recognizing the change in the demographics and the situation that is clearly right before us. Has that been looked at within the Department of Education? I think they need some education.
MR. GOURLEY: Yes, it has and in fact, that little segment I did on employer adaptation is about that. We recently addressed the Human Resources Association of Nova Scotia, the HRANS conference that was here and we are currently working on a project with HRANS to roll out in October that will directly address leadership in the HR sector,
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connected to leadership at the CEO level. Understand that for the moment, human resources is a corporate function that responds to the leadership at the CEO level. They are seldom at the board table. That has to change.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: That has changed, I believe, in other places, because I've been to presentations . . .
MR. GOURLEY: To some degree, yes.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: . . . where they said no longer will they be just a sidebar to management, they're going to have to sit at the table with the Director of Finance and the CEOs.
MR. GOURLEY: There's nothing like the prospect of being hung to focus attention. That's what's happening to our employers in this province, and Atlantic Canada, it's not just Nova Scotia, because their labour force is shrinking, because it is more difficult to recruit people, they're realizing that HR function has to be elevated in terms of its approach. We're working with the HR people to try and message that upwards, and with CEOs to try to message it downwards. The two things have to get together, they're integrated.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Well, I'm glad to hear you've spoken to them and that this has been raised. I just feel it is critical, because they are the ones who are kind of gatekeepers to these jobs and to the expansion of our economy. So that signal they send, and the welcoming nature of their interviews and process is very important. I just don't think we're at that level of professionalism, and I'm not sure we're doing it within our own Public Service, either.
MR. GOURLEY: Let me give you just a couple of statistics from Opportunities Nova Scotia, the four hiring fairs that we held across the province. Out of that came the realization that there were 2,318 jobs in this province that were going unfilled, and that was just four job fairs, just four, and 5,000 resumés received, 12 per cent of which were from out of province, and we didn't even advertise out of province, we advertised in The ChronicleHerald and a couple of the local papers, the Daily News and a couple of the local papers where the job fairs were being held. So the network is there.
What that tells me is that the recruitment method is the traditional method. Let's put an ad in the paper. Dexter Construction spent $90,000 on advertising in newspapers for people last year and got nothing. Well, okay, take your $90,000 and go a different way, that's the message that has to get out there.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Just one last question for you, Mr. Gourley. You talked in the beginning about wages and that we have to also ask do we have people in our province who are willing to work for the wages that are offered. In your research, is that a key factor,
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because we have one of the lowest minimum wages in the country. Again, maybe our employers have not responded.
MR. GOURLEY: I think we have a wage problem in the province. I think we're at the hourly wage, excluding overtime, we're the second lowest; and salaried, we're the lowest. So I think we have a wage problem and I think that has to be addressed. Now part of that question is, consumers need to recognize that if that happens, if wages are adjusted, prices will also adjust, and that's just part of what we have to do.
The other piece to your comment is around minimum wage. You go to minium wage if the economy is going in the tank, because it is a protection at the bottom. What I prefer to do is say, okay, compare your wage levels to other jurisdictions and internationally and say, okay, are you in the band? In many places we're not even in the ballpark or the city, never mind anywhere else. That's the message that has to get across, as well. Part of that, as I said, is that consumers need to recognize that if you change this, change the cost of business . . .
MADAM CHAIRMAN: There is a bit of inflation across.
MR. GOURLEY: Absolutely.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: No, I do understand. I thank you very much.
I'd like to thank all of the guests today who have joined us. It is very good to have people here from the federal government as well, and I thank you for coming from Service Canada. We do appreciate receiving the labour market information that you send out on a regular basis. I always have a look at that publication. (Interruption) We do, we have a look at it, and I thank you.
For the committee, we have just one piece of business. It's not on our agenda. It is the letter that was received May 14th from the Leader of the Liberal Party, Stephen McNeil. The request is that we consider asking representatives from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. I hope everybody has had the chance to have a brief look.
Mr. Epstein.
MR. EPSTEIN: I wonder if the clerk could bring us up to date as to what we have lined up. In principle, I have no problem with this. It seems to me the way we were divvying up the agenda of the committee was each of the caucuses were really nominating topics that they wanted to go forward. If your caucus likes this one, that's fine. I mean, I don't see anyone is in any position to say nay, and it's certainly an interesting topic. So if that's what you want to put to the fore, then that's fine.
I wonder, do we have anything else lined up at the moment?
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MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): This was the last of the approved items.
MR. EPSTEIN: Okay, then fine, let's see what we can do about this.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: The question is how quickly we would want to move on it. You know, given that these jobs have already been announced that they're leaving and they are focused in Dartmouth, which I know is of interest to all Parties, I think it is certainly a very important impact to our urban core, and maybe on a service level right across the province to the fisheries that we've been talking about.
MR. EPSTEIN: I think our caucus is going to be available over the course of the summer, or certainly enough people would be available if the committee were to schedule a meeting. I don't know about yours.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: I think that was one of the questions, whether we'd be willing to meet.
MR. THERIAULT: Any time, I'm willing.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Okay, because I thought perhaps we wouldn't schedule a lot in the summer but if this one is agreeable to everybody, I'd like to get the ball rolling, make the invitation and see if we could have them appear some time in the next month or so. Would that be fine? Well let's just make a motion to do so - I don't know if we need a motion. We don't, we're in agreement. Let the record show we're in full agreement. Yes, Mr. Bain.
MR. BAIN: One of the things, especially over the summer if we are meeting, is it possible to move our start time to 10:00 a.m. instead of 9:00 a.m.? It would make it easier for some people who are coming from out of town, they wouldn't have to leave quite so early.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: I think certainly for the next meeting we could do that. On a regular basis it doesn't always work.
MR. BAIN: No, I'm thinking just the summer.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes, I think that's just fine. I think a number of us don't have as far to go but that is very important for you so yes, indeed, the next one will be for 10:00 a.m. then. And we're looking at July 9th, that would be fine.
MS. CONRAD: I'm out of town for that period of time but go ahead without me.
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MADAM CHAIRMAN: You can probably get a substitute. Thank you very much, we're done.
[The committee adjourned at 10:57 a.m.]
