HANSARD
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES
Ms. Becky Kent (Chairman)
Mr. Gordon Gosse
Mr. Mat Whynott
Ms. Pam Birdsall
Mr. Jim Morton
Hon. Michel Samson
Ms. Kelly Regan
Hon. Christopher d'Entremont
Hon. Richard Hurlburt
[Mr. Gordon Gosse was replaced by Ms. Michele Raymond.]
In Attendance:
Ms. Jana Hodgson
Legislative Committee Clerk
Mr. Gordon Hebb
Chief Legislative Counsel
[Page 1]
HALIFAX, TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 24, 2009
STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES
9:00 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Ms. Becky Kent
MADAM CHAIRMAN: If everyone is in agreement, we'll get things rolling. We have a quorum. I know that one of our members is in traffic, and I understand that there will not be any members from the Progressive Conservative Party today.
I'd like to call the meeting to order. If we could start by introducing ourselves for the record - we'll know who is in attendance.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Our agenda is fairly straightforward today. We have our ABC appointments today and then some organizational agenda-setting. With regard to committee business, there is nothing unless someone raises something during our meeting, and then we have our next meeting at the end.
We'll proceed now with agency, board and commission appointments. We all have a list, so our first department is Community Services. Mr. Whynott.
MR. MAT WHYNOTT: I so move that Annette Deveau be appointed as a member of the Round Table on Early Childhood Development.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion on that? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
[Page 2]
Next we have Housing Authorities. Ms. Raymond.
MS. MICHELE RAYMOND: Madam Chairman, I so move that Wendy McLean be appointed as a member of the Annapolis Valley Housing Authority.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion on that? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. JIM MORTON: Madam Chairman, I so move that Sadie Holloway and Sam Morrison be appointed as members of the Cape Breton Island Housing Authority.
HON. MICHEL SAMSON: I was just curious, I have no issues with these appointments at all - I've been watching to see when there would be a representative from the Richmond County area on this housing authority. I haven't seen one; it is possible it went by and I missed it. The last representative I recall was Frank Sutherland and there was an attempt to reappoint him and that was stopped because there is a rule that says you can only serve two terms, so he was disqualified because of that.
I haven't seen a replacement since that time, so I'm just wondering if as chairman you could check with the minister to see if there has been an appointment and, if there has been, who is that person - and, if not, it would certainly be very helpful to have someone there. I think it's going well on to a year, if not more, since Mr. Sutherland has been there. I'm not sure if the position has been vacant that long or if there is someone else, but I don't recognize these two names so I don't think either of them would be a representative for the Richmond area on this housing authority.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We certainly can have staff make some contact with the department and see what's happening with that and get back to you.
Is there any further discussion on the appointments for Cape Breton Island? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The last one under Housing Authorities is Eastern Mainland. Mr. Whynott.
MR. WHYNOTT: Madam Chairman, I so move that Duncan MacDonald be appointed as a member of the Eastern Mainland Housing Authority.
[Page 3]
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
We'll move on to the Kings Regional Rehabilitation Centre, Board of Management. Mr. Morton.
MR. MORTON: Madam Chairman, I so move that Cathy Cantwell be appointed as a member of the Kings Regional Rehabilitation Centre, Board of Management.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Moving on to the Department of Economic and Rural Development, Trade Centre Limited. Ms. Raymond.
MS. RAYMOND: Madam Chairman, I so move that Justin McDonough and Cheryl Newcombe be appointed as directors of the Trade Centre Limited.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion on that? Mr. Samson.
MR. SAMSON: Well, here's where we start running into some of the issues which I had raised at our first meeting. You have one of the appointees here, Justin McDonough, and when I look at the community involvement and contributions, he has listed here New Democratic Party - active with election planning committee and fundraising in numerous provincial and federal elections.
[9:15 a.m.]
I do realize there are other parts of his resumé which indicate a significant level of involvement in various areas, but unfortunately it leaves open the possibility for the conclusion that Mr. McDonough is being appointed because of his political affiliation. Now, there are a few ways we can get around that - the minister could do in this case what has been suggested by some of your colleagues in the past, such as Graham Steele, whereas they could indicate to us who are, I believe, the nine applicants - eight male, one female who made application to this - in order for us to determine if Mr. McDonough is the best qualified person, along with Ms. Newcombe, for these positions and therefore making it clear that Mr. McDonough is there because of his qualifications and not because of the fact that he lists, under his community involvement and contributions, involvement with the New Democratic Party.
[Page 4]
I don't know how you wish to proceed with this, Madam Chairman, if we should put the question to the minister responsible, I think it's Economic and Rural Development, and see if they can shed any light on this in order to assist us. With this kind of information, with Mr. McDonough actually listing this as part of his involvement, it certainly would lead someone to suspect that his name is coming forward because of his political involvement and not because of his qualifications to sit on the Trade Centre Limited, which I think we all know is one of the biggest economic generators here in HRM, both for sport and cultural activities. Therefore, we want to make sure we have the best possible people on this board to move it forward because, if I'm not mistaken, there are some ambitious plans for the Trade Centre as it is going to move forward in the next couple of years.
I'm just curious, before making a motion, if there's any discussion by you, Madam Chairman, or any other members, as to how we might be able to make sure, as committee members, we have the best possible information here and that Mr. McDonough doesn't have this hanging over his head as his appointment moves forward, that his political affiliation is the leading factor at play here.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Samson. At this point Mr. Morton would like to make a comment.
MR. MORTON: Well, I had a chance to look at the materials that we were presented in the course. Mr. McDonough does indicate some involvement with the New Democratic Party, but his resumé also lists a wide range of other relevant experience, ranging back almost 20 years: experience in business, a great deal of experience in the world of athletics. It seems to me that while one aspect of his life is political - that's generally a good thing, to be political. We need political activity in our communities. Everything about his resumé suggests that he would be a relevant and well-qualified person for a role like this.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. Samson.
MR. SAMSON: There's no doubt of that, Mr. Morton. I guess the problem is that there are nine other individuals who have applied, and we don't see their applications and we don't see their resumés. This is a long-standing complaint of colleagues in your Party over the years, and I think you've heard me raise those in the House and quote some of your colleagues - who are now in Cabinet, some of them - for expressing the same concern that I'm expressing now. His political involvement should not be a barrier to him being appointed, but it certainly raises a suspicion and it also, as committee members, we know that there's at least nine people who made application and we don't see their application. So it's hard for us to say Mr. McDonough is the best qualified candidate - or Ms. Newcombe, for that matter - when we don't see who the others are who applied.
[Page 5]
One of the other questions I would raise is, has Mr. McDonough applied in the past? Based on his experience and that, is this a position that he has applied for in the past or is this his first time applying, which I would think plays some relevance here as well.
Again, those are the concerns, and I know if I was Mr. McDonough I'd probably want it to be made clear that he was appointed based on his resumé and not on the fact that he has added his involvement with the New Democratic Party. So again, I'm not sure, Madam Chairman. I know that after this issue was first raised you indicated something about the Committee on Assembly Matters, but then the Premier later indicated that he may be interested in some possible changes to how this committee works and how appointments are made. So I'm not sure if you, as chairman, could inform us whether there have been further discussions with the Premier, or anyone else, in regard to some of the concerns raised and some possible solutions to those.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you. At this point, no, we were concentrating on getting through the House of Assembly and matters that were before us in the Legislature. It is certainly something that I can make sure is the next step for us, as a committee, to bring that to his attention.
At this point I think it's fair to say that perhaps in this case, as in many, there are no doubt lots of the applications that do have political involvement. I understand what you are saying in raising this; it just happens that this particular application chose to put that forward and have that up front and forthright. From the perspective of being open and transparent to the public, I think that's not a bad thing.
Unless there's a motion on the floor, I think we should proceed with the motion that's before us, which is consideration of moving this appointment forward; certainly duly noted what you are talking about and I can take that with discussions, in discussions with the Premier on considerations around the mandate of the committee and how this moves forward under our government.
MR. SAMSON: Well, that being the case, I realize you indicated there is no motion. Allow me then to move that the appointments of Justin McDonough and Cheryl Newcombe be held until such time as we can write to the Minister of Economic Development, in order to indicate whether there is a possibility of us seeing who were the other applicants for this position, in order to assure ourselves that these are the best qualified individuals to serve on the very important Trade Centre Limited board, and I so move.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Is there further discussion on that motion, to defer this decision until a later date?
[Page 6]
MR. MORTON: Didn't we already have a motion on the floor?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: We had a motion on the floor, yes. I'm not sure, how should we proceed with that?
MR. GORDON HEBB: You can always have a motion to defer the previous motion.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: So that interrupts, I think, that motion, yes. So we'll have to deal with Mr. Samson's motion first and then we can revert back to the original motion, should it be defeated. Any further discussion on Mr. Samson's motion for deferral?
MS. RAYMOND: My question is, who would be writing? Would it be the committee writing, then, to the Minister of Economic Development?
MR. SAMSON: Yes, Ms. Raymond, it would be the chairman who would write to the minister and if you look in the past, and I believe, Ms. Raymond, you sat on this committee before - oh, you haven't?
MS. RAYMOND: No.
MR. SAMSON: Okay, sorry. I think I'm the only one around the table who sat on this committee before, so I can tell you exactly what this committee did and everyone will agree because there's no one, other than some of our staff here, but it was a fairly normal procedure for us to defer appointments when issues were raised asking for clarification. For example, I know that your former colleague, the former member for Dartmouth East, would regularly raise concerns about the lack of female representation on committees, so it was a regular occurrence that we would ask ministers to explain why there was no female representation in the appointments coming forward.
So it wasn't rejecting any appointments, it was simply delaying them until the next meeting, while asking the minister for clarification, which is all this is asking: delay them until such time as the Minister of Economic Development could possibly indicate to us who the other nine applicants were or again, some reaffirmation that these two are the best qualified candidates to serve on the important Trade Centre Limited. Right now, as it stands, we don't know who the other applicants were and we have no idea what their qualifications were.
MS. RAYMOND: So previously, though, the inquiries that have been made have not been actually for the identification of other applicants but for statistical information, like how many people were female or how many people had such and such a qualification. Or would they actually be identified, asking for identification of the other applicants?
[Page 7]
MR. SAMSON: That's completely up to the minister. I guess in this case with a new government, we don't really know how it's going to be dealt with but it's not a question of gender in this case because if you do look on the page, it does show with the advertisements there are eight males and one female. So it would appear that Ms. Newcombe was the only female applicant but there are at least seven other male applications.
Again, this is an issue which was raised primarily from your own colleagues in the past so that's what the request would be. The chairman would write the minister and I'm sure we could deal with these at our next meeting, if it's agreed to defer them so the minister can provide us with a bit more clarification.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: At this point I think I'd just like to remind everyone of the original position on requests for further information around applicants. At this stage it's not the mandate of the committee to proceed in that matter, so I'd just remind members of that. Certainly again, I'd like to acknowledge that the information is duly noted and a conversation - I'll take that in with me to the Premier and the Premier's Office staff around the committee mandate as we go forward. So I just want to put that on the table.
Is there any further discussion on the motion for deferral? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
MR. SAMSON: Maybe just poll the members.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: We'll poll the members, I would agree, thank you.
[9:26 a.m.]
YEAS NAYS
Mr. Samson Ms. Raymond
Ms. Regan Mr. Whynott
Ms. Birsdsall
Mr. Morton
Ms. Kent
MADAM CHAIRMAN: The motion is defeated.
Now we'll revert back to the original motion.
Is there any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
[Page 8]
Next we have the Executive Council Office, Election Commission. Mr. Morton.
MR. MORTON: Madam Chairman, I so move that Michael V. Coyle be appointed as chairman of the Election Commission.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion on that? Ms. Regan.
MS. KELLY REGAN: When I look at Mr. Coyle's resumé, I notice that his work experience ends in 2007. Do we have any indication what he's doing now?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: No.
MR. MORTON: I happen to know, if I could add, that he works as a legal counsel for the Nova Scotia College of Registered Nurses, but I'm not sure in what capacity.
MS. REGAN: So he's not the same Michael Coyle who works as a lawyer in the NDP caucus office?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: In caucus? At this stage I can't confirm that. I don't know that anyone in our caucus can do that.
MS. REGAN: I just wondered why, if he's working for the nurses, it's not on his resumé. If he's working in the NDP caucus office, that's certainly what comes up when we check for Michael V. Coyle. The only gov.ns.ca we're finding is one who works in the NDP caucus office.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: At this stage I don't have an answer for you.
MS. REGAN: Well, then I think we should probably wait to do this. I am concerned, if that is the case, that we are looking at appointing someone to a position where they get paid $250 a meeting at the call of the chair. I've checked with people who sit on this and it sometimes meets every month, sometimes less. If it is the case, is it appropriate for someone who's already on staff with a political Party to be getting another stipend on top of that? That doesn't quite seem right. It seems like double-dipping, if that is the case. I also note that it was not advertised. So we can't see who else might have applied because it wasn't advertised.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Do you have a motion?
MS. REGAN: Madam Chairman, I so move that we defer this until we can have Mr. Coyle's employment situation clarified.
[Page 9]
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion on that motion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
Maybe we should poll again, it's a little ambiguous there.
[9:30 a.m.]
YEAS NAYS
Mr. Samson Ms. Birdsall
Ms. Regan Ms. Raymond
Mr. Morton
Mr. Whynott
Ms. Kent
MADAM CHAIRMAN: The motion is defeated.
We'll revert back to the original motion.
Is there any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. SAMSON: Just while I'm thinking of it, I'm wondering - again being the only member who has served on this committee before - if we could ask our clerk, for the next meeting, to show us some examples of where the committee has deferred appointments and on some of the issues. I can tell you that I'm a bit surprised at seeing two requests being rejected today. I know that your government has a majority on this committee, but in the past the committee has worked a bit more on a consensus format.
When issues have been raised about gender representation, cultural representation or other issues, it has generally been accepted by this committee to defer for one month. I'm just a bit concerned that at least two requests have been rejected this morning. I think it's important that members of the committee see exactly how the committee has worked in the past. I think you will see that a lot of the requests for deferrals which were approved came from members of your political Party. I would suggest that information might be valuable as we move forward.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you, I think that certainly would be of value to us. All of us today are new to the committee. I also should note though, both deferral motions were with regard to employment experience and their declaration associated to political Parties as opposed to the gender and cultural experience, et cetera, that you have noted.
[Page 10]
Having said that though, yes, from a chairman's perspective, I think that's a valued piece of information that we can review. Hopefully, as time goes on, we'll all get a better understanding of making sure this committee is working to its most efficient capacity for all Nova Scotians and all of the boards and commissions we are appointing to.
MS. REGAN: My request dealt with the accuracy of someone's resumé and so I don't care if somebody is with a political Party. I wouldn't care if they worked in the Liberal caucus office and they were then going to collect a stipend on top of that, my concern is that this resumé ends in 2007 and we don't have any confirmation where the person works now.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much for the clarification on that. My comment, again, was back to Mr. Samson's suggestion around the mandate, which is exactly how he described it. In the interest of the functionality of the committee, we'll proceed with that request. I don't think we need a motion to that effect, do we? No. I think it's a good thing to bring us up to speed, so thank you very much for that.
Next we'll move forward to the Department of Justice, Municipal Board of Police Commissioners. Mr. Whynott.
MR. WHYNOTT: Madam Chairman, I so move that James Fraser be appointed as a member of the Municipal Board of Police Commissioners.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Next we have the Department of Labour and Workforce Development, the Arbitration Advisory Committee.
MS. RAYMOND: Madam Chairman, I so move the following appointments to the Arbitration Advisory Committee: Bruce Archibald as chair; Robert Dunn, J. Gordon MacLean, and Peter McLellan, Q.C., as employer representatives; and Linda Gallant, Raymond Larkin, Q.C., and Larry Wark as trade union representatives.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
[Page 11]
Next is the Occupational Health and Safety Advisory Council. Ms. Birdsall.
MS. PAM BIRDSALL: Madam Chairman, I so move the following appointments to the Occupational Health and Safety Advisory Council: J. Harris McNamara as employer member/co-chair designate; Robert Wells as employee member/co-chair designate; Rick Clarke and Martin MacPhee as employee members; and Sean Bedell, Darren Gardiner, Jacqueline A. Hatt, and Leo van Berkel as employer members.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
The Workers' Compensation Board. Mr. Morton.
MR. MORTON: Madam Chairman, I so move that Phillip Veinotte be appointed as an employer representative of the Workers' Compensation Board.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Under Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations, we have the Certified General Accountants Association of Nova Scotia. Ms. Raymond.
MS. RAYMOND: Madam Chairman, I so move that Stephen J. Thompson be appointed as a member of the Certified General Accountants Association of Nova Scotia.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Our final appointment is to the Real Estate Commission of Nova Scotia. Mr. Whynott.
MR. WHYNOTT: Madam Chairman, I so move David R. Melvin as a member of the Nova Scotia Real Estate Commission.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
[Page 12]
The motion is carried.
At this stage we'll move on to organizational agenda-setting. At this juncture we are setting up our witness presentations for the new year, 2010. It is expected that we would select four presenters for the coming year. With government sitting, we would begin with a presenter from the NDP caucus, proceed to the Liberal caucus as Official Opposition, and then proceed to the Progressive Conservative caucus, with a final one from the NDP caucus.
What I would like to suggest is that we have motions on the floor for each of them and I'll finish off with a request for a backup consideration, should someone not be able to attend. At this stage we have had lists presented to the committee staff. It is my understanding and everyone could make sure, just let me know that each caucus has had the opportunity to review the lists. The Liberal Party came in with theirs earlier this morning. At this stage we can proceed with setting those witness agendas.
Okay, so if I could ask Mr. Whynott to put forward one on behalf of the NDP caucus.
MR. WHYNOTT: Yes, I'd like to make a suggestion for the Department of Labour and Workforce Development regarding the Canada-Nova Scotia Labour Market Agreement. It's timely, especially with the economic times right now. I so move that group.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on that? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
At this point we'll go to the Liberal caucus. Ms. Regan.
MS. REGAN: We'd like to move the Department of Education, School Capital Construction program.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on that? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
At this stage we have no representation for the Progressive Conservative caucus but it would be, I think, in keeping with the functionality of the committee and every caucus being represented - we do have a list so I'm going to ask someone from the government caucus to put one forward on behalf of the Progressive Conservative caucus. Mr. Whynott, if you could do that.
[Page 13]
MR. WHYNOTT: I so move that the Nova Scotia Federation of Home and School Associations appear before our committee.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on that? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
Back now to the NDP caucus for the fourth and final presenter at this stage. Ms. Raymond.
MS. RAYMOND: I would like to suggest that perhaps the Department of Education come in to speak on arts and culture education in Nova Scotia. I think that would be a broad and timely thing to do.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion on that? Mr. Samson.
MR. SAMSON: I'm just curious, with arts and culture, should we not also possibly have representatives from the Culture division? My understanding is that they are with the Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage right now, so I'm just curious whether they would have a role to play in this as well. We may want to expand the request to them because I'm not sure how the Culture division works with Education on these issues.
I think it might be useful to also have the Culture division of Tourism, Culture and Heritage be part of that, in case there's something they can add to that as well.
MADAM CHAIRMAN: That certainly sounds like a reasonable - there's no reason why we can't proceed with that request. Okay, so we'll amend that motion.
Are you thinking, Mr. Samson, as a separate, or staff coming in together at the same time?
MR. SAMSON: At that - let me amend that by saying if it's determined by the chairman that there is no relevance between the two of them, or if two completely separate matters, the chairman can advise us accordingly and there's no need. I'm just saying in case it is, why have both of them separate if we can have them together here at the table?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: There seems to be agreement for an amendment to that motion, so we will proceed on that.
Is there any further discussion? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
[Page 14]
The motion is carried.
At this stage, though, I would like to again put forward - I don't know if I need a motion again. Do I need a motion for a backup consideration, or just consensus? I'd like to put on record, though, so everyone understands, we have these identified in those priorities, so they would come forward in that manner, but if one could not attend, that it would be reasonable that our committee staff would then proceed to contact the next presenter and see if they can be moved forward and we'd slot the other ones in later. You would all be given plenty of notice as we are regularly updated by committee staff. Is everyone okay with that? All right, thank you, that's terrific.
At this stage there is no committee business. Our next meeting is December 8th and it would just be agency, board and commission appointments.
MR. SAMSON: Am I correct in saying that the meeting is at 11:00 a.m.?
MADAM CHAIRMAN: Yes, 11:00 a.m., and probably for just an hour at the most.
Thank you very much for attending and we'll see you at the next meeting.
I'll adjourn the meeting. Thank you.
[The committee adjourned at 9:42 a.m.]
