MR. CHAIRMAN: I would like to convene the Subcommittee on Supply. We will be continuing the discussion on the estimates of the Department of Labour.
The honourable member for Cole Harbour-Eastern Passage.
MR. KEVIN DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure to have the opportunity to ask a few questions of the minister and his staff, one of whom is a constituent of mine, the deputy minister, so it is always nice to be able to run into him on a working basis.
Let me ask a few questions about the health and safety regulations. You may or may not know, Mr. Minister, it is near and dear to my heart, having drafted those regulations back in 1993 to 1995 while I worked at the Department of Labour. In particular, in 1995 the Advisory Council on Occupational Health and Safety had tied up those regulations with a nice pretty bow; they were drafted and they had the consensus of both management and labour. In fact, those areas where agriculture was particularly of note, including roll-over protective structures, the Federation of Agriculture had agreed with them as well, both Mr. Keddy who was president who sat on the Advisory Council and Mr. Terry Canning from the Agricultural College who represented them at the meetings. So my question to you is, how come it has taken almost five years for those regulations to be passed and approved by Cabinet?
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Labour.
HON. ANGUS MACISAAC: I want to thank the honourable member for the question. I am sure he can appreciate that I can be accountable for the period of the past number of months, but beyond that, the honourable member was here, I wasn't. As a matter of fact, I spent a lot of that time on the seat of a tractor. I wasn't perhaps as familiar with the regulation as I should have been, although I have since been informed that the tractor I was on was suitably equipped, unbeknownst to me at the time. I can tell you that the regulation will, in fact, be implemented November 1st, and it is our intention in the interim to really be active on two fronts. One of those is to ensure that we conduct as much public activity as possible by way of advertising and communication to ensure that the level of awareness is as high as we would like it to be. I am not sure we will ever achieve that level in terms of having everybody aware. The other side of that coin is the question of not only awareness but a willingness to be able to respond and say that this is something we need to do.
One of the reasons we are going to make use of the red tape commission is since it is structured and geared or will be structured and geared to travel throughout the province conducting hearings, that it would be a suitable vehicle to enable people who are concerned with the regulation in somewhat of a negative way in the sense that there are still pockets of reluctance out there, that it is an opportunity for them to come forward and enunciate those concerns which they have. Hopefully that will provide us with an opportunity to address those concerns and to, as much as possible, work in such a way that people can be convinced that compliance in this situation is the most desirable outcome. So there are two things we are really doing in that regard. There was some reference, and it is a legitimate reference, that for some people who are in marginal operations the additional time would provide an opportunity to put together the cash levels that are required to make such an investment.
Really, the concern I have with respect to the regulation is once implemented, is to obtain the kind of compliance that we need because the scary part of the regulation is that while we would have the roll-over bar in place, if the seat belt is not used in conjunction with that roll-over bar, then we have a situation which may, in fact, in some instances be worse than the situation we had prior to the installation of the roll-over bar. The job of communication is an extremely important one, and the job of encouraging compliance is extremely important as well. I think, as I indicated, the worst of two worlds is a third situation to which I have referred, that of having the roll-over bar in place but not having the use of the seat-belt take place. I can't answer your question going back to 1995, but I can share with you the concerns I have had since I have become involved with this responsibility.
MR. DEVEAUX: Has the red tape commission started?
MR. MACISAAC: No, it hasn't. I am told that it will be starting shortly.
MR. DEVEAUX: Who is on the commission?
MR. MACISAAC: I don't know the answer to that at this stage.
MR. DEVEAUX: When will the commission finish its work with regard to these regulations?
MR. MACISAAC: I have at least mentally composed, and we are geared up and ready to communicate with the commission as soon as it is constituted. We will be requesting that they get back to us in time for us to first of all look at their hearings and look at any recommendations that they might have to be able to share those recommendations with the advisory council and to respond if necessary in any way with respect to the regulation before it is put into effect November 1st. So I can't give you the precise dates, but I can tell you those are the objectives we have in mind.
MR. DEVEAUX: I guess I will make a comment and then have a question probably flowing from that. Back in 1994, there was some resistance with regard to the fall protection and the scaffolding regulations. It was the first one produced through the review process. In fact, I will give you a very specific example. There was a process in place in which it was decided in the regulation that they would ensure that flat roof buildings must have some form of fall protection, either a guard rail or safety belts. There were those in the roofing industry and those in the contracting industry who said it is not possible. They quite clearly felt that it would be an infringement and it would be costly, quite frankly, blah, blah, blah. Anytime government talks about regulation it was one of those things, clearly they just didn't want to see it done. The government moved forward with it, and it was implemented.
Subsequent to that, probably about six months after the regulation was implemented, I would be driving down the streets of downtown Halifax particularly, and I would see on top of buildings - I was told only six months earlier that it was physically impossible to find a way to put a guard rail around a flat building to protect the workers - within six months they had guard rails in places where people were doing tarring and roofing on flat roofs. What I find interesting is it is sort of the old Field of Dreams line, if you build it they will come.
If you create a regulation that is reasonable, that protects workers, there will be an industry that will find, through innovation, ways of solving the problems. Quite frankly, there will always be naysayers. There will always be people out there who will quite clearly be concerned with any regulatory change, but the government in the past has led by example and tried to push the envelope in certain ways, not in radical ways, but in ways quite frankly that harmonize with national standards. Again, ROPS is an example where we don't harmonize with national standards. There are clear examples of where the people and the industry that deals with the safety issues find a way to do it. I don't recall many roofing industries going out of business because we put in place those rules. Quite frankly, those that might have were probably out of the back of a pick-up truck, and we are probably all better off, including the workers and the people who use their services for them if they did have to go out of business because of it.
My point is, you will always hear negative comments about any regulation. This government - it was a Tory Government - in 1993 after Westray that wanted a review to ensure that regulations would be harmonized with national standards, and we still don't have it. We still are relying predominantly on regulations that go back to 1948. I don't know if the minister knows that. Health and safety regulations are predominantly over 50 years old. That is a concern, I would suggest, not only of workers, but of other people in this province. I guess I sort of want to finish up by asking a very specific question which is, how many comments have you received since your government has been elected that have raised concerns about these regulations in letter or e-mail form, and how many of them are individuals, and how many of them are corporations?
MR. MACISAAC: First of all, I want to thank you for the question. I don't know that philosophically we are that far apart in terms of achieving compliance. That is something I feel needs to be emphasized. I can say that I have been encouraged, even within my own community by some conversations that I have had with individuals who view the need to install roll-over bars. They are viewing it now as a challenge, people who are very handy in terms of getting work done and they are busy attempting to put together their own devices. With regard to that, we have, in fact, received suggestions from the farming community through one of the MLAs in the House with respect to a method whereby we might be able to provide standardized engineering drawings or standards that could be helpful. We haven't worked it all out yet in terms of the details, but the fact is that sufficient attention has been drawn to the issue, that people are responding, both as individuals and other people are responding in terms of ideas or ways in which the regulation can be met. That refers to your thoughts with respect to innovation in terms of rails on flat roofs, so there is a response out there.
The nature of the responses I have had and the department has had with respect to the regulation is mostly from small-business people and most of them are individual operations where people who are very busy in terms of their day-to-day lives. Their first reaction and first glance at these requirements is one which is of a negative nature, that this is just another impediment in my way as I struggle to earn a living. These people have made representations, not just to the department, but to many of the MLAs in the House and have expressed concerns of that nature. So that would be representative of the vast majority of the representations that we have had.
MR. DEVEAUX: Well, my question is very specific, and I am hoping you can at least even give me a ballpark figure which is how many written - and by written I mean e-mail or letter form - submissions has your department received raising negative concerns with the implementation of new health and safety regulations since your government got elected last July? A ballpark figure is fine.
MR. MACISAAC: In the interests of accuracy, it would be best if I took that as notice and got back to you.
MR. DEVEAUX: So the minister is willing to give me a specific figure, not today, but are you willing to table at some point a specific figure as to how many written submissions you have received?
MR. MACISAAC: Yes. I can say that in conversations I have had with MLAs, they have attended meetings where they have had upwards of 120 to 130 people on the topic of roll-over bars. I know of two members who have had that sort of turnout. I have had individual representations, personal representations, made to me with respect to it. But we will certainly do the research and get the number for you.
MR. DEVEAUX: I guess the other point I want to make, Mr. Minister, this isn't just roll-over protective structures. I understand coming from your community - and if you were working on tractors before you got elected - then obviously it is of particular concern to you. I am also talking about confined space entry. I am talking about work on electrical facilities. My understanding I think is that the only regulations based on the notice that came out, and correct me if I am wrong, that the construction safety regulations have been passed as of April 1st, but the rest were delayed until November 1st. Is that accurate with regard to the general safety regulations?
MR. MACISAAC: We held back, until November 1st, all of those items which had been covered previously by a previous regulation, and that regulation remains in effect until such time as the new regulation is put into effect.
MR. DEVEAUX: So maybe you can tell me, Mr. Minister, what regulations? When I read that memo originally, or that statement in the House, I can't remember which one it was, you said that some of it would be passed on April 1st but some of it would be delayed until November 1st. What regulations were actually passed and approved by Cabinet and implemented as of April 1st.
MR. MACISAAC: Could I answer slightly differently by saying what has been held back?
MR. DEVEAUX: It is important that I understand from reading that statement or the memo that came around - maybe it was a press release - on April 1st. It was made quite clear in the reading that some things were passed April 1st, but there would be others that would be delayed until November 1st. So I need to know quite frankly which ones were passed on April 1st.
MR. MACISAAC: The list is very extensive, and I could arrange to get it delivered here and read it into the record if you wish.
MR. DEVEAUX: If you have a copy, I would be more than glad to take a copy.
MR. MACISAAC: I will obtain a copy and get that for you.
MR. DEVEAUX: Will that be today just so I have an idea? Is that something we can get today?
MR. MACISAAC: We will be able to get that for you before the day is over.
MR. DEVEAUX: Thank you. The minister will be producing a copy today of the regulations that were passed as of April 1st.
MR. MACISAAC: Yes.
MR. DEVEAUX: Okay. The whole thing about health and safety, Mr. Minister, and I am sure you are aware of this, is that you can pass an Act. Quite frankly we did pass a very good Act in 1997 with the help of the Tories and the NDP and the Liberals with a lot of cooperation. Management and labour agreed to it. It was in 1996 I guess. That legislation is the skeleton, and the meat to the bone is the regulation.
There used to be some discussion of harmonizing regulations among the three Atlantic Provinces, particularly when there were three Liberal Governments. Now that we have three Tory Governments, I am curious if there is again discussion of harmonizing regulations among the three provinces in some form?
MR. MACISAAC: I am informed that there has been some preliminary discussion with respect to attempting to achieve some national harmonization of regulations. There is a meeting coming up week after next where that topic is on the agenda.
MR. DEVEAUX: I take that is the CAL or whatever.
MR. MACISAAC: CAALL yes.
MR. DEVEAUX: Okay. I just had a couple other questions around this. (Interruption) Do we adjourn for bells, Mr. Chairman?
MR. CHAIRMAN: We don't adjourn. As long as I keep my quorum here.
MR. DEVEAUX: You will stay. We will be fine.
MR. MACISAAC: I am not going anywhere.
MR. DEVEAUX: The other question around that, again a comment before a question. The point is that Nova Scotia, if you are talking about harmonizing nationally, is quite far behind in many areas, whether it be on occupational health or whether it be on general
workplace safety legislation. Until a lot of these things that you are delaying until November 1st and maybe longer are passed, we are in a situation where again our province has been consistently lagging behind. Now, in the areas of legislation, I haven't had a chance in the last couple of years to follow other provinces - but we do probably have one of the best Acts in the country. I guess I am sort of tooting my own horn with that, so I won't go much further. But the regulations, quite frankly, until they are passed, the Act really doesn't mean much.
One of the other areas that was originally discussed was training for joint occupational health and safety committees. I know that got bogged down between management and labour. Is there any more discussion of implementing joint occupational health and safety training regulations?
MR. MACISAAC: I am informed that work is still at the advisory council level and has not yet come forward for my consideration.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Minister, so there is no consensus of recommendation at the advisory council?
MR. MACISAAC: Not at this stage, no.
MR. DEVEAUX: Okay. I know it is something that has been going on for years. I am sure the deputy minister is aware of it as well. The other area in which there had been consensus and then I think it had fallen apart was an area of violence in the workplace regulations. I know the former minister, Mr. MacKinnon, had constantly said it was coming, and it was coming. I am curious, is that one of the ones delayed until November 1st, or is that somewhere in never-never land right now?
MR. MACISAAC: Before the time of our government, I understand that was brought forward to Cabinet and was not considered by Cabinet. It is at the advisory council level and has not come back again for any consideration on my part.
MR. DEVEAUX: Maybe the minister can tell me, how many prosecutions a year are done under the Occupational Health and Safety Act, can you give me a figure from like 1999, 1998, those two years?
MR. MACISAAC: About 20 to 30 a year.
MR. DEVEAUX: That has been consistent since 1992?
MR. MACISAAC: I am not exactly sure.
MR. DEVEAUX: I think it is. I just wanted to see if there is one on the record. I want to turn now to the Labour Standards Code, something that I think is over 25 years old. Does this government have any intention of implementing a new Labour Standards Code?
MR. MACISAAC: There is some homework being done within the department on that matter. It is not something that we are currently at the stage where we could bring it forward for public consultation, but obviously we would like to have as much as possible updated and that kind of research. Work is being done within the department.
MR. DEVEAUX: This is not meant in a partisan way - you could be a Liberal, a Tory or a New Democrat - but, quite frankly, the workplace has changed a lot in the last 25 years with the use of a lot more part-time work, and I would suggest there is a great opportunity through this province to attract employers.
I use the example of the Netherlands. I am not sure if the minister is very familiar, but they have done a great job of changing their labour standards code, or whatever they call it in Dutch. They have changed it in a way that has enabled the workplace to become much more flexible, and to allow employers opportunities to use part-time workers more often, which of course they don't mind. At the same time, the unemployment rate in the Netherlands is less than 2 per cent, predominantly because they have made the workplace more flexible for the workers and for the employer; much along the lines, I think, of what the Occupational Health and Safety Act was meant to do. Let's recognize that every workplace is different, and that every employer and every worker is different, and let's recognize that individualism. Let's ensure that through allowing workplaces to have more flexibility, while still ensuring basic principles and standards are being met, we can create a different system. So that is a comment.
[2:30 p.m.]
MR. MACISAAC: I just want to say I appreciate the nature of the comment. I have been here long enough to become aware of the fact that there is some very good work being done in other jurisdictions, and some of it has been brought to my attention. Certainly the situation in the Netherlands is one that I am aware of, probably not to the same degree that the honourable member is, but certainly I am aware enough to the point that it is something I would like to pursue in terms of finding out what is happening in other jurisdictions. The honourable member is quite correct, the nature of the workplace is changing. It is important for us to be in a position to be able to respond to that. I know that the employees within the department are very anxious that we be as forward as possible in terms of where we are as a department, and the regulations and everything that relate to the workplace. I appreciate the comments of the honourable member, and certainly any thoughts or suggestions that he may have at any time, I would be more than pleased to hear from him.
MR. DEVEAUX: If the minister at any point is taking a junket to the Netherlands, he can just let me know, and I will be more than glad to chat with him on the flight over.
MR. MACISAAC: In this environment, I think I am going to have to rely on the Internet, Mr. Chairman.
MR. DEVEAUX: One last question about the Labour Standards Code. The federal government is moving to a one year maternity and parental leave. The way my understanding of that works, and correct me if I am wrong, Mr. Minister, is that there has to be sister and parallel legislation in the province under the Labour Standards Code to protect the workers, because unless you are under federal jurisdiction, your right to protection for maternity leave would only come under the provincial Labour Standards Code. So the federal government can in theory say we are going to pay people for one year to take leave from their job to raise a child that is born, but without changes in the Labour Standards Code to mirror that, they wouldn't have the protection of returning to their work except for the six months which are now in place under the Labour Standards Code. So does the minister anticipate changes to the Labour Standards Code in time to match the January 1st start-up of the one year maternity leave that the federal government is implementing?
MR. MACISAAC: I don't anticipate the change occurring in time for that deadline. There are a lot of issues within the province that need to be addressed with respect to that. In an ideal world, we may be able to move in that direction, but unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world, and the honourable member referred to the changing dynamics of the workplace, and that creates certain difficulties with respect to employers and employees when you have periods of long absences. Those are factors that we would want to take into consideration.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, is the minister telling us then that it is his government's position that - because it wouldn't cost the government anything, it is all funded through the EI system - given the fact there is no cost to the government or very little nominal costs, that it is a matter of principle that he believes that women shouldn't have the right to return to a job after one year of maternity leave?
MR. MACISAAC: Perhaps I could relate to the honourable member that in February we met in Winnipeg, the National Ministers of Labour. This was an item that was on the agenda at that time. I can say that the concerns which I just related to the honourable member were concerns that were raised by virtually every other jurisdiction in Canada. It is not a philosophical concern with respect to the rights of women in the circumstances as much as it is an employer/employee environment difficulty and the capacity of the workplace to be able to react to these changes. As I indicated, it is not unique to Nova Scotia, a reaction in this regard.
MR. DEVEAUX: Mr. Chairman, I think it is important that the minister understand that it was only 10 years ago that it was a three month maternity leave. It was extended to six months. Now there is talk of changing it to one year. These are incremental changes, and I don't recall much fuss or much controversy over moving from three months to six months. We only have to look at the United States, where I believe up until recently they had no maternity leave, and the implications that can have, particularly if our government is serious about children being raised in a way for them to have the basic skills to enable them to go to school. That one year which they have with their parents to bond is a very important year. I speak on a personal note here, given the fact that I have a young son. It is something I think the minister should strongly consider when he is thinking about this. This isn't a matter of cost. This is a matter of saying that someone who wants to stay home with their child should have a right to do that for one year. The federal government will pay. It is not the province that will have to pay for that. They should have the right to return to their work, and I would hope the minister would think about that.
MR. MACISAAC: Could I just comment on that?
MR. DEVEAUX: Sure.
MR. MACISAAC: Relative to our discussion earlier about the changing nature of the workplace, if given the opportunity - and I will certainly take hold of the opportunity to communicate with the federal minister - it may be that as we look at provisions such as this, a year away from employment, it may be that if we were innovative we could find ways whereby people could in fact be able to spend the bulk of their time at home caring for their children but still be able to work part-time and receive benefits. Those are things I think we need to start considering if we are going to do this, because the prolonged absence from the workplace is definitely an issue for employers. In some instances it is an issue for the employees because where you are in a workplace that is very changing, there is a lot of innovation taking place; if you are away and out of touch for that long a period of time, the workplace could change considerably during your absence.
If we could be innovative and find ways for people to achieve their fundamental objective, which is to be with their children, and at the same time remain in touch with the workplace to the point where none of this difficulty for the employer or the employee would occur upon the return to full-time employment, it might be the basis of a solution. That would require some very innovative thinking, very innovative regulations with respect to EI in order to achieve that. I think those are the sorts of things we need to start thinking about with respect to this, rather than just looking at a complete block of time where somebody is out of touch. In today's dynamic workplace, I just don't think that is really going to work to everyone's advantage.
MR. DEVEAUX: Okay, my last two questions, one is with regard to the fire code. I know your department has been working on a fire code for, gosh it must be five or six years now. When does the minister see a new fire code being introduced to the Legislature? Do you see that happening and when?
MR. MACISAAC: I would hope it would be introduced within the next six months.
MR. DEVEAUX: My last question, one of the blue book promises of this government was to merge the Occupational Health and Safety Division of the Department of Labour with the Workers' Compensation Board. Is there any intention of bringing forward legislation in the next six months or one year to make that happen?
MR. MACISAAC: I am hoping we would be able to have that in place if not within the next year, within the next year and one-half. Right now we are gathering views and opinions with respect to this. I hope during the summer to be able to begin evaluating the proposals that we are receiving and once that evaluation has taken place, then to put forward some proposals for reaction.
MR. DEVEAUX: Those are my questions. I will pass my time over to my two colleagues. Thank you.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.
MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: Mr. Minister, I have a few questions. My friend, the member for Hants East, would you give me the high sign when I have about five minutes left please?
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have until 3:05 p.m.
MR. ESTABROOKS: I know, but once I get started here, and I know the member for Hants East has a couple of issues.
I want to talk about staffing if I could, Mr. Minister, and if you could clarify a couple of things for me. How much reduction in staff will the Department of Labour have over the next year?
MR. MACISAAC: The staff changes at the department will be very insignificant, virtually nil. That is due to the fact we are putting increased emphasis on our inspection, regulatory functions. In order to achieve those objectives, we have not been able to look at that. What we have been able to do, of course, is look at the funding of the services, and we are increasing the fees. I might say that the reaction we are getting is not a negative one with respect to those increases. Most people want the service and are willing to pay for it.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Which leads me to the topic of inspections. Could you, in round figures please, inform me of the number of complaints for various reasons that your staff would be handling in the run of a year and the number of inspections throughout the province?
MR. MACISAAC: Could you give us a minute on that?
MR. ESTABROOKS: Yes. Round figures now.
MR. MACISAAC: The largest division that receives contacts from the public is Occupational Health and Safety, and we have had over 500 complaints, about 1,300 inspections, and about 4,000 contacts made through the department in that division.
MR. ESTABROOKS: I appreciate those round figures. That is what I am looking for. I would like to deal with this issue of inspections again, and I have mentioned it to your colleague from the Department of the Environment. If you could take me through, or a member of your staff, when you receive a complaint dealing with an occupational health and safety concern of whatever nature. I will get to the point because it does concern me. There have been occasions when there have been rumours - although we are not supposed to deal with these - that your inspectors give a heads-up to a particular company for a visit they are going to make, they have a complaint and they call with the words, we are on the way. I would like you to clarify whether it is policy or not policy when you receive a complaint, do your inspectors just go out and do the job, or do they call the company or the scene saying that inspectors are on their way?
MR. MACISAAC: The policy within the department is, first of all, not to disclose that a complaint has been received. I think the honourable member can appreciate why that is so, because we want to encourage as much communication with respect to infractions of occupational health and safety as possible. When complaints are received there isn't any disclosure of the nature of the complaint or the source of the complaint with respect to the employer. The second point is that when inspections are made, there is no advance notice given that the inspection is about to take place.
I have just been informed that sometimes in the course of work an officer may need to speak with an individual person in order to effectively do their job, and so rather than travel 75 kilometres out of their way, they would make contact to make sure that person is available but that is not a common practice. It is not necessarily inspection related, as much as it is perhaps a follow-up activity for this sort of thing. Occasionally somebody is contacted simply to ensure that they are available and that the trip is not useless.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Exactly. I thank you for that clarification because probably I would be complaining later that they have too much mileage and their expenses are up. I think it is really important that the rumour mills cease and desist on this, and the fact is I think it
would be appropriate that the minister issue very clear guidelines that unless absolutely impossible there should be no announcement. I don't know whether that is part of the policy statement or not, but in the past I have been concerned about that issue. I think it has to be clarified again with staff.
MR. MACISAAC: I am quite happy that the honourable member asked the question, because it is another opportunity to make the point with respect to the policy on inspections. We would be more than happy to make available to you the policy document which governs inspections. We would be quite pleased if, when you receive enquiries, you would reference the document so people could see it.
MR. ESTABROOKS: I would like to continue with staffing, if I could. Could you give me a breakdown, and I am aware of the fact that according to the numbers, 184 are on staff, how many of that current staff operate out of Halifax offices as opposed to how many are outside of metro? I am interested in regional as opposed to services within the immediate area of the capital region. The reason for that, of course, is that there are other areas in the province - and you come from one of them - and there is the perception that everybody works downtown and that Nova Scotians would be better served if there were more Labour officials, in this case, outside of the downtown core. I say metro and I know that is getting bigger with every amalgamation that happens. Could you please give me a breakdown of how staff is allocated in downtown HRM as opposed to outside of metro?
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could start by running through, and I will use Occupational Health and Safety as an example; to go beyond that detail we may have to go elsewhere. I guess you are not that interested in what goes on in the minister's office or the deputy's office for instance, but it is pretty much all here.
MR. ESTABROOKS: That is the point. You hit the nail on the head.
MR. MACISAAC: There are six people there. If you could have a resolution passed in the House that those six people should operate out of Antigonish, I would certainly second the motion.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Mr. Chairman, if I may, perhaps the minister, at a future date, could clarify for me and for Nova Scotians the breakdown of staff employed in other regional offices.
MR. MACISAAC: If you don't mind taking the information after today, we could provide you with a complete breakdown of all of the staffing.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Absolutely, I understand that. These are some of the types of things that are important to clarify. If I could go to another issue of staffing, it involves the line item on Page 17.3 in the Supplementary Detail, under Administration it lists the Office
of the Minister and Deputy Minister, Business Services, Research - and I see that there has been a cut there, and I am going to come to that in just a moment - and Legal Services. Where are your media and PR people? You don't have any, is that what your deputy just said?
MR. MACISAAC: We have one who is attached to the deputy minister's office, and he is under contract which expires March 31st.
MR. ESTABROOKS: If I may on this topic, that being the case, I would like the record to show I congratulate the Department of Labour and this minister because I truly believe that in some other departments - and having gone through the Estimates Book and seen those line items, I don't want media flaks running for cover on this issue - it seems to me that this makes the minister more unavailable. As a minister you have always been available, in the short time you have been there, you answer the questions, you respond to us as Opposition critics.
I would really like to congratulate the department for not using these funds. I look at the Department of the Environment, which I don't want to go to in this case. I was just wondering, I thought it was there in some other item. I don't think that there should be departments where you have PR people. You are the elected official, you do the best you can with the help from your deputy minister, and face the consequences.
Research, the line item where I was looking for media and PR flaks, has been reduced. Can you explain that to me?
MR. MACISAAC: Yes. I am told that those are all related to Y2K expenditures which were there last year and obviously are not there this year.
MR. ESTABROOKS: So we don't have any Y2K plus one, thank God, right?
MR. MACISAAC: No. I just might comment. When I became a minister I wasn't too sure what I was getting into - and by the way, we also share our media person with Priorities and Planning, he is not full time at our department - but I must say there are occasions when I am unavailable in my constituency office or am meeting with constituents within the constituency and questions arise that need to be addressed. It has proven to be extremely useful on several occasions to have a communications person on staff to be able to deal with those situations, and when it has been preferable on the part of the person making the enquiry to be able to communicate with me directly, the communication person has been able to track me down and find me. We have been able to make the contact. There definitely is a role for these people.
MR. ESTABROOKS: I will take that, Mr. Minister, but I notice in particular there are some departments that overdo it a bit, and your department doesn't in my view. I congratulate you for it.
MR. MACISAAC: I appreciate the comment.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Before I turn my time over to the member for Hants East, it is a topic which we cannot do justice to here now. The Department of Labour was recently involved in a very controversial decision concerning the offshore and the death of Shawn Hatcher. I want you to know, Mr. Minister, that the relationship and the answers that your staff provided to me because of my own personal involvement in the Hatcher case, was outstanding. I worked, at the committee stage, with a number of those people, and they were truly professional. There is a but.
I believe the offshore should be completely within the control of the Occupational Health and Safety Division of this department. I know that involves a lot of staff, a lot of training, a lot of other things in the future, right? But I know how Mr. LeBlanc, in particular, handles things, and having heard from some of those other men who worked in your department; I didn't deal with any of the women. I believe the offshore Occupational Health and Safety should be completely within your department's jurisdiction. How do you feel about that?
MR. MACISAAC: My concern is that we are able to clearly identify who, in fact, is responsible and that we put in place the necessary policies, frameworks, and everything that is required in order to ensure that we can identify the area of responsibility, and we can examine how that is structured, how the policies and regulations are effected in order to ensure that the issue of safety is, in fact, achieved. That is the direction in which we are moving. My deputy has been involved with discussions, and we are moving in that direction.
The offshore, of course, is not confined to Nova Scotia. It is a national issue in a sense. Newfoundland is involved. Natural Resources Canada is involved. One of the objectives that we are working toward is to ensure that there is, in fact, in place a national culture with respect to safety in the offshore, and that we move to sort of cultivate or to motivate that culture if you like and get it in place and to have it become entrenched so that we can have a standard that is truly national. That is one of the considerations that we are looking at and we are concerned about.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Thank you, Mr. Minister. I now turn my time over to the member for Hants East. I do again want to compliment Jim LeBlanc in particular for his professionalism.
[3:00 p.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Hants East.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: I want to thank my colleague for relinquishing five minutes for me. I appreciate that.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Don't waste it.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: I want to thank the minister and the staff. I guess I am looking for some clarification on a couple of things. Can you tell me the difference between a Class I and a Class II undertaking - I think this comes under the Department of Labour, not the Department of the Environment - around assessments for sites for working conditions, safety conditions, et cetera?
MR. MACISAAC: I am told that is the requirement of the Department of the Environment, and we do not do any pre-assessments.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: You can correct me, but I thought one of the recommendations that came out on the report on the Westray Inquiry was that underground mining operations should be classed in a Class II undertaking so they would have a full environmental assessment. But environmental assessments also take in safety considerations where a Class I undertaking does not. Yet this wasn't in the fall - and I forget the bill that came through the House - this wasn't incorporated in that legislation. To me this connects with the Department of Labour because it is a safety concern. I realize the minister may have limited knowledge on this because of the direction it is coming, but I am wondering, do you have any plan or intention or if that makes any sense to you that underground mines should have a Class II undertaking to address the possibility of safety concerns before men wind up a mile under the surface?
MR. MACISAAC: The legislation, of course, was one which the Mineral Resources Act and the Environment Act were amended. The requirements under that legislation are that no permits are to be issued by the Department of the Environment until such time as all of the regulations of the Department of Labour have been complied with, and that we are satisfied that compliance has taken place. The standard that will need to be met will be contained in the underground mining regulations.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: Okay, but in your underground mining regulations that your department has, is there anything that requires that full safety evaluation prior to the mine being set up the same as there would be in a Class II undertaking?
MR. MACISAAC: There are a number of requirements upon the filing of the documents that would require that.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: Well, I think unless my colleague has another question, Mr. Minister, that I think clarifies mine. I would like maybe to pursue this again with you at some point. I was kind of hoping to update my notes prior to coming in here, maybe making my questions a little more pointed. It is a concern of mine, and I was a little disappointed in the Mineral Resources Act that did come through, and there was a reference to the amendments to the Environment Act in that. I think we had pushed for a Class II undertaking, and the bill only said a Class I. I know there is a difference in what the two undertakings require. The Class II is more comprehensive, and we felt that in light of the history of underground mining in the province, going to the nth degree would have been a far better approach. I think at some point in the future, I would still like to pursue this with you and maybe give myself some time to clarify in my own mind a little more between the two as well. I appreciate your time on the question.
MR. MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I just want to offer a couple of comments in conclusion to the questions that were brought forward here. First of all, I want to say to the member for Hants East that any time he would like to come to the department, we would be more than happy to extend our hospitality, and we can sit down and familiarize him with any of the topics that concern him. That is a standing invitation. Please feel free to follow that up.
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: I will, and I thank the minister for his invitation. I took the Deputy Minister of Fisheries up when the Minister of Fisheries made the same offer. After two and a half or more hours with the deputy minister, I think he was starting to regret that they ever made it, but I appreciate it, and I will try not to wear out my welcome when I do it. Thank you very much.
MR. MACISAAC: Feel free to do it on the instalment plan. (Laughter)
MR. JOHN MACDONELL: I will try that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Time has expired for the questioning. I will allow the minister to answer his question.
MR. MACISAAC: It is not so much a question as it is a comment of appreciation. The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect made reference to the staff, and I want to thank him for that. Certainly I have been, as I indicated in my opening remarks, extremely impressed with the level of professionalism that exists within this department, with the degree of dedication that is there. It is certainly a privilege for me to be able to be the minister of a department that has people of that calibre within the Department of Labour. I certainly appreciate the honourable member making reference to that in his comments.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That concludes time for questions for the NDP caucus. I believe there are no further questions from the Liberal caucus for the Department of Labour?
MR. DONALD DOWNE: That is correct. Thank you, Mr. Minister.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any further questions from any other members of the committee? Now I will give an opportunity to the minister to make some closing remarks.
The honourable Minister of Labour.
HON. ANGUS MACISAAC: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank all honourable members for the input they have given with respect to the consideration of these estimates. I can say that we have a lot of challenges ahead of us as a department, and we are busy adjusting to a changing workforce, a changing workplace, and the challenges that are out there are considerable. I look forward to those challenges as we move forward.
I want to share with members of the committee, if I could, some of the priorities for 2000-01 with respect to our department. What we identify as goal one is to promote a safe and healthy workplace and work practices. Really it is not just the place, but it is the culture we need to work on. I think that if we don't achieve the culture, then we are not going to achieve the results we want. In order to get that culture, it is going to require a considerable effort on the part of all involved, employers and employees, small-business owners and some of our small-business community. Especially people who are struggling to get started and get going in the early years of the business, we need to make sure that they don't consider our objectives and our requirements as impediments, but rather consider them as part of a very positive culture.
I had an opportunity to receive a presentation from one of our major employers in the province. They went through some of the culture they have incorporated into their activities, and that culture is not just a culture that relates to the workplace. It is a culture that relates to life on the street, how you cross the street. Since that presentation, I even find myself looking to make sure I am at a crosswalk before I cross. They extend it beyond the workplace because they recognize there is real value for them to ensure that the investment they make in their individuals is an investment they are able to make use of throughout that person's working career. If they can promote a safe home, for instance, if they can promote a culture where there is safety within the home, then they have the benefit of that person avoiding accidents, but not only that individual avoiding accidents, but members of the family avoiding accidents so that they are not distracted in terms of looking after somebody. It is very interesting when you start to get involved in this whole idea of establishing a culture of safety.
Perhaps one of the more interesting aspects of it, and this is one where we really need to do a job in terms of promoting the culture of safety in the workplace, is the degree to which the safety culture in a workplace increases productivity in that workplace. More and more evidence is pointing to the fact, and the honourable member for Queens I am sure can verify this, but the more you develop the culture of safety and you implement that within the workplace, the greater the level of productivity you get. In order to do a job safely, you need
to plan the job to ensure you avoid safety problems. In the course of planning, you wind up doing the job much more efficiently.
During the presentation, I was reminded - and if honourable members would forgive me - of one of the finest gentlemen I have ever had the opportunity to be associated with in my life, the late Joe Adams who worked with Maritime Tel and Tel out of New Glasgow. Joe, when I worked with him, I was probably about 21 years of age. Joe was close to retirement age at that point, so it was quite an opportunity for a youngster to learn something from experience.
I can remember landing at a job site with Joe in the MT&T truck. Joe used to smoke makin's in those days so the first thing he did was open the door of the truck. He stuck his leg out and took out the tobacco and started to roll the cigarette. I thought he was just wasting time the first couple times I saw it. Then I realized he was looking up the pole, and he was planning. He didn't have the sheet in front of him where he ticked off everything that had to be done, but the sheet was up here, the spreadsheet was in his mind, even though there was probably no such word as spreadsheet in those days.
What he did, and he spent I would say, well whatever length of time it takes to roll a makin's and consume it, he would spend at least that much time sitting in the truck. More often than not, he left the truck and went to get the test set and he would call the engineer. I would hear him talking to the engineer saying, there is a problem with our plans because you can't do what you want us to do here. We would have to make these adjustments. By that stage, except for the youngsters who were engineers, most of them said, Joe, if that is what you think should be done, then you change it, and I will alter the drawings to comply with what you have done.
At any rate, it was an example for me, and the example of Joe Adams came back to mind as I listened to this presentation because he, in fact, did that, and it was a great learning experience for me because he calmed me down, first of all. I wasn't quite so anxious to run out of the truck and get up the pole and then wonder what I was supposed to do when I was there. We knew exactly what we were going to do when we got there.
That is a very important goal, and I think it is one we need to (Interruption) No, unfortunately, I took up smoking long before that, and I managed to get rid of the habit, too. At any rate, the other goal is to promote fair wage compensation, employment standards and effective labour/management relations. We want to meet the anticipated increased demand for concilation and grievance mediation as the public sector is restructured and contracts renegotiated.
The third goal of the department is to promote safe buildings and equipment for public protection. We want to prepare new fire prevention legislation that clarifies the roles and responsibilities of the provincial and municipal levels of government and restructure the public safety division to streamline service and reduce red tape. Goal four is to continuously improve the service we deliver and improve public and staff satisfaction with the work of the department. Finally, we want to promote fairness for injured workers. We want to implement the recommendations of the select committee and the Auditor General and work in closer cooperation with the Workers' Compensation Board and the Workers' Compensation Appeals Tribunal and the Workers' Advisers Program to enhance service provision to injured workers and employers.
Now, Mr. Chairman, unless any other members of the committee have questions, I am prepared to sum up. I want to again thank members for their attention, also for suggestions that were made. One of the things I have come to appreciate about the exercise of estimates is that not only is it an accountability session, but I think it is an opportunity where there is a genuine - especially in this format, not perhaps so much in the other - opportunity to have a beneficial exchange of ideas. With that, I thank members and appreciate your cooperation. I want to thank my staff who have been with me through these deliberations.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E16 stand?
Resolution E16 stands.
The time now is almost 3:20 p.m. I believe the bells started ringing at 2:25 p.m. So we have to probably recess here to go in to respond to the vote. After we come back, the next department up will be the Department of Tourism.
[3:20 p.m. The subcommittee recessed.]
[3:33 p.m. The subcommittee reconvened.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Before the committee this afternoon is the honourable Minister of Tourism. I invite the minister to introduce the staff and make some opening remarks to the committee.
Resolution E36 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $38,388,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Tourism and Culture, pursuant to the Estimate and the business plans of the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia and the Nova Scotia Arts Council be approved.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable Minister of Tourism.
HON. RODNEY MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, before starting, I would like to introduce Michele McKenzie, Deputy Minister of Tourism and Culture, as well as Louis de Montbrun from the Corporate Service unit.
I am pleased to take this opportunity to speak about the Department of Tourism and Culture. Our department's mission is to champion the development, preservation, and promotion of tourism, culture, and heritage. The aim is to stimulate economic development, generate export revenues, and enhance the quality of life for the benefit of all Nova Scotians. To support that mission, the department's budget for the 2000-01 fiscal year is set at over $38 million. This is a reduction of approximately $2 million over the year before. In deciding where to direct our resources, we ruled out across-the-board reductions. Reducing all program spending by the same percentage hasn't worked in the past, and we don't think it will work in the future. Instead we chose to focus on priorities that will help to stimulate economic development, generate export revenues and enhance the quality of life for the benefit of all Nova Scotians.
Our new budget means adjustments in programs and services, and while there are reductions, we are also making new investments in tourism and cultural development. The result is a budget that reflects the government's commitment to growing the economic and social significance of both tourism and culture, sectors that are key to the economic future of rural Nova Scotians. On the tourism marketing side, we have ensured that investments in our core markets are protected, and we have set aside new money to invest in the market readiness of our tourism products. This translates into stable support for our tourism marketing efforts.
Having hit the $1 billion a year mark, tourism is headed for $1.5 billion. This government has set that as a tourism goal during its first mandate. Our budget means new investment for tourism development initiatives directed towards rural Nova Scotia. There is also new investment for Celtic Colours which will result in significant economic and cultural opportunities for Cape Breton. This new investment directly links to our commitment to support a year-round tourism industry and to build on the Island's cultural strengths. Also on the cultural side, the budget translates into stable support for our rural provincial museums and the community museum network. We know that museums are a source of economic activity and employment, and they also preserve and protect our cultural heritage while appealing to our visitors and providing educational opportunities for our communities.
On the subject of museums, we will also make Highland Village a provincial museum site. This will result in a stronger museum presence on Cape Breton Island with a theme not already covered. Again, it is an investment that supports our government's commitment to build on Cape Breton's strengths.
Our support for culture doesn't stop there. We are also prepared to make new investments in cultural development initiatives that are export focused. In addition, we are providing operating funding to the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia's western branch in Yarmouth, and will set aside new funding for specific Acadian initiatives.
I have just provided you with a list of new investments and initiatives. However, I would be remiss if I didn't also point out those areas that will face reductions. On the visitor information services side, we had to identify the most strategic areas in which to operate. This means cuts in services on board the Marine Atlantic Ferry in North Sydney, and a centre in Wood Islands, P.E.I. It will also mean less funding support for local VICs throughout the province. We do remain committed to keeping Port Hastings and Amherst open on a year-round basis, since we believe this to be the most strategic and prudent use of our resources.
We are also proposing a decrease in the amount of annual operating support for tourism organizations and for other tourism clients. I would like to stress that efforts were made to minimize the impact of these reductions on the rural areas of the province. This means organizations in urban centres such as Halifax will be taking a slightly bigger reduction. We are also confident that the new investments we are making in tourism and development and the stable support for marketing will help to offset the impact of reduction on tourism clients.
There will also be a decrease in operating support for some cultural organizations, including the Nova Scotia Arts Council, the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia, the Public Archives of Nova Scotia, and Cultural Affairs clients. While annual operating funding for cultural organizations has been reduced, project funding for marketing and export-focused initiatives has increased. This should help offset the impact of reductions.
Funds available to heritage property organizations and individuals have been reduced as well. However, the funding will still enable the department to meet the most pressing demands for assistance in the current year. To help generate revenue, we will be looking at new admission charges at some provincial museums. This revenue generation means less pressure on the public purse. Other changes include our government's decision to pursue negotiation of a private-sector management contract for the operation of provincial resorts, a national or international chain could bring significant marketing power to the table, strengthening the resorts and the province as a whole. The goal is to have such an arrangement in place for the 2001 operating year.
It is obvious from what I have just outlined that we don't have the sort of money we would all love to see; it simply is not there. We have known our deficit has to be dealt with, and our department, like all others, would have to play a part.
Now for an overview of some of the department's programs and services.
Our department employs staff which delivers a broad range of programs and services in support of tourism and culture. Located in communities throughout the province, staff serves an extensive client base that includes the visitors and the general public, community groups, municipalities, and tourism and cultural organizations and industries.
Our service is shaped by the recognition that Nova Scotia's beautiful landscape, diverse cultures, rich history and heritage, and quality cultural activities and products add tremendous value to our quality of life here in Nova Scotia. These attributes also position us as a world-class destination for Canadian and international travellers as a great place to live.
The challenge for our department in the year ahead is to focus efforts and resources on priorities identified through the Culture Sector Strategy and through the Tourism Partnership Council. As well, we need to take advantage of this synergy by bringing together tourism and culture in a new department. The Culture Sector Strategy was released in September 1999 as a collective effort on behalf of cultural and heritage stakeholders from across the province to create a framework and identify priorities for growing Nova Scotia's culture sector.
Six goals emerged from the strategy and include creative capacity, increased sales, strong workforce, organizations and institutions, an educated public, investment and community development. The Tourism Partnership Council was established in 1998 by the previous government and the previous Minister of Economic Development and Tourism as a joint industry-government partnership to provide leadership in the development and promotion of tourism.
The council's vision is to, "Realize Nova Scotia's tourism potential as a world-class four-season destination for the benefit of all Nova Scotians." The council has played an extensive role in realizing Nova Scotia's tourism potential, including implementation of the following seven goals set out in the Nova Scotia Tourism Strategy, including: having the right products for the right market; providing customers with quality experiences of good value; marketing our products effectively; developing leadership and partnership among industry stakeholders; fostering a supportive business environment and entrepreneurial customer-oriented business climate; improving transportation access and infrastructure; and nurturing and protecting our tourism assets.
Nova Scotia's tourism industry had a remarkable year in 1999 with double digit growth that made the past year the strongest in the history of the province. Revenues surpassed $1.2 billion, a 14 per cent increase over the 1998 record-breaking year of $1.1 billion.
Nova Scotia's heritage and culture sectors were also a driving force in economic growth. Between 1990 and 1996, the number of Nova Scotians working in the cultural sector rose by 19.8 per cent, well ahead of growth in other sectors. One in 20 jobs in Nova Scotia
is in the culture sector. With the development of a provincial culture strategy, stakeholders are well positioned to further capitalize on Nova Scotia's competitive strengths.
In support of these sectors, our goals for 2000-01 are: to work in partnership with Nova Scotia's tourism sector; to generate economic growth and export revenues through development and marketing of Nova Scotia's tourism industry; to work in partnership with Nova Scotia's culture sector; to generate economic growth and export revenues through development and marketing of Nova Scotia's cultural enterprises; to work in partnership with Nova Scotia's culture and heritage community; to encourage and assist Nova Scotians with education, development and preservation of the arts and our cultural and natural heritage; and to deliver professional and quality corporate support to government through provision of records management and archival programs, protocol services for visiting dignitaries and strategic direction for investment in Nova Scotia's youth.
The mandate of our Department of Tourism and Culture spans tourism, marketing, provincial resorts, visitor information centres, museums, culture and heritage, archives and records management, cultural institutions, protocol and coordination of strategic investment for youth.
On the tourism side of our department, staff inspects and licenses all fixed-roof and campground properties. We operate the three provincial signature resorts, including implementing hospitality training programs to deliver a high standard of quality service to guests as well as promoting the resorts as motivators of travel to Nova Scotia; benchmarks of our industry quality and generators of economic activity and job creation in rural communities.
Staff also operates a tourism distribution centre. The centre receives and distributes more than 8 million pieces of tourism literature throughout the visitor information centre network and fulfils consumer requests for travel literature received through our toll-free information and reservation service and through the department's website.
We also operate the visitor information centre network, with centres located at Amherst; the Halifax International Airport; two in downtown Halifax; in Digby; Yarmouth; Portland, Maine; Port Hastings; Pictou; Peggy's Cove; and Bar Harbor, Maine. The division also implements service excellence training and programs such as the Fair and Friendly Exchange. In addition, it administers the provincial employment program for local VICs across the province and leases out retail space in VICs for visitor gift shops.
We also provide toll-free information and reservation service to people interested in Nova Scotia as a vacation destination through Check In service. Reservation commissions collected through accommodation reservations generate some $500,000 in revenue. Right now, we are in the process of securing a new contract to enhance and upgrade Check In. We have to take advantage of the latest technology. Consumers need access via the Internet
including customized travel literature, direct reporting capabilities, on-line property adjustments and, most importantly, on-line booking.
The Tourism Division conducts tourism research and collects, analyses and disseminates tourism statistics and information through various reports and publications. In addition, we provide tourism development and planning support including financial assistance and guidance to communities; planning and secretarial support to the Peggy's Cove Commission; assistance in developing the market readiness of Nova Scotia's most competitive tourism products, destinations and attractions; development and distribution of "how-to" tourism development publications designed to assist entrepreneurs and tourism operators; and tourism policy, including developing and supporting government policy that assists in the growth and competitiveness of Nova Scotia's tourism sector. That is a brief summary of the Tourism Division.
On the marketing side of the department, the goal is to market Nova Scotia as a tourism destination for the purpose of generating export revenues. As previously noted, tourism is a vital export industry, contributing to the province's economy. Roughly one-half of the industry's billion-plus revenues are export dollars.
The province measures the success of its marketing programs on a regular basis to determine additional visitor expenditures that have occurred as a result of the activity. In Nova Scotia, a 1999 investment of $6 million in advertising, part of the province's multi-million tourism marketing budget, was responsible for generating $84 million in visitor expenditures. That means every advertising dollar spent generated $13 in tourism receipts.
The $10 million tourism marketing program also levers an additional $8.5 million from other government and private sector partners. Overall, tourism marketing plans are developed and executed in partnership with the Tourism Partnership Council. Overall functions of the marketing division include: planning and research, including identifying priority markets, relevant tourism products, and the best means of communicating with the target market; and evaluating the effectiveness and impact of our marketing programs.
Another marketing function is advertising, including print advertising in magazines and newspapers, broadcast media, direct mail and database, and electronic marketing through the virtual Nova Scotia website. The advertising agency of record, which handles most of the advertising work, is the Nova Scotia-based Corporate Communications Limited.
Another area of the division is internet marketing with the province well positioned to take advantage of the growing use of the Internet as a marketing tool with its Virtual Nova Scotia website. The division also manages an extensive literature program, including the flagship 400 page Doers and Dreamers Guide, including both the French and English versions, highway maps, festivals and event publications, French and German language pieces among
others. Literature programs are also a major generator of cost recoveries through advertising sales.
In addition, the marketing division enhances awareness of Nova Scotia as a tourism destination through editorial material and print and broadcast media. This involves hosting travel writers and broadcasters who subsequently publish stories in magazines and newspapers or on television. The department also directly generates its own editorial material for publication. This so-called free ink has the dual benefits of being free and having greater audience credibility than just advertising.
The division also devotes attention to regional programming. Like many tourism destinations, our biggest source of visitors is the market within our own region. Specific advertising in literature programs as well as marketing themes and point-of-sale displays are part of regional programming.
The department also has a destination marketing accord program which is a cost-sharing marketing program with destination areas within Nova Scotia, usually represented by the regional tourism associations.
Sales is also a critical function within the division. A substantial portion of our visitors, particularly those from more distant markets, choose to take a group tour or other package vacations or have a travel agent plan and book their itinerary. Thus, the travel trade, which includes tour operators, travel agents and other marketing intermediaries forms a critical marketing channel, especially in our developing markets where consumers are less familiar with Nova Scotia. Activities include direct sales calls, hosting travel trade representatives on familiarization tours, as well as representing the province at trade shows and promotional events.
Partnerships are critical to success in penetrating the travel trade channels and the department works closely with the industry through its Tour Operators Partnership program. In some markets, direct sales efforts also target consumers, usually in the form of travel show participation.
This overview on the tourism side of our department should have given you some sense of the breadth and scope of activities under way to help the province maximize the benefits that tourism can bring to the economy.
Now, for an overview of the Heritage and Culture Branch. This section of the department is responsible for the activities of the Nova Scotia Museum which operates 25 provincial museum sites and supports 64 community museums. Heritage and Culture is also responsible for the operation of the Cultural Affairs Division and the Heritage Unit. In addition, the branch provides liaison for the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia, Nova Scotia Archives and the Nova Scotia Arts Council.
Under the Heritage and Culture umbrella, a Heritage Resource Services Division provides 25 Nova Scotia Museum sites with central services in the areas of special places, conservation, retail operations, publications, translations, information management, marketing, promotion and administration. It is important to note that the Nova Scotia Museum raises more than 30 per cent of its budget through fees and other revenue activities. The Nova Scotia Museum delivers its programs and serves both local residents and tourists in 142 Nova Scotia communities. Over 685,000 people visited last year, making it a huge part of the province's tourism infrastructure.
Our busiest museum is the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic with over 200,000 visitors a year. The museum collects, preserves, researches and interprets the maritime history of Nova Scotia. It has some 40,000 artifacts and photographs relating to Nova Scotia's maritime heritage. The collection also includes 70 small craft and the 80 year old decommissioned research ship, CSS Acadia. It also includes a 60,000 square foot building, two wharves and three boat sheds which provide a venue for year-round interpretive programs and public events and a meeting place for numerous related non-profit groups. Revenue is generated from admissions, retail operations - including a new and expanded year-round sales shop - and facility rentals.
The Museum of Industry in Pictou is also part of the provincial museum network. Its mission is to inform Nova Scotians and visitors of the province's industrial past. The industrial collection includes nine locomotives, three automobiles and eight stationary steam engines. It is on an eight acre site that includes a partial reconstruction of a Cornish pumphouse and a former Stellarton Via Rail passenger station.
The museum is also a major resource in the area with the facility used by local business and community groups. In fact, it is increasingly becoming a focal point for the community with rental fees of some $117,000. The museum has been particularly entrepreneurial in establishing the museum as a place for the community to come together. Its outstanding exhibits give a fascinating glimpse of Nova Scotia's past and present industry, from apples and glass to steel and service industries.
Another division within the Heritage and Culture Branch is the Nova Scotia Museum of Natural History. It is responsible for collecting, preserving, researching and interpreting the natural history of Nova Scotia. Major client groups include schoolteachers, students, tourists, families, natural scientists and private sector environmental consultants.
Overall, the museum manages provincial geology, botany and zoology collections - about 350,000 specimens, plus associated information databases - for research and education. It also researches Nova Scotia's natural history, both directly and through partnerships with volunteer research associates and other agencies. It operates the building on Summer Street as both a public museum and provides office space for about 30 staff from other Nova Scotia Museum divisions and history collection storage.
As part of the community, the museum provides meeting space and other support services to about 30 related non-profit societies. It also provides support to the Fundy Geological Museum, one of the province's locally managed museums.
A fifth division within Heritage and Culture is the History Division. It is responsible for supporting 13 locally managed museums and operating eight directly managed sites of the Nova Scotia Museum. These constitute a major part of the Nova Scotia Museum collection of 130,000 history artifacts.
Again, these museums provide opportunities for Nova Scotians and visitors to the province to learn about Nova Scotia's social, architectural and natural history. Under the department's Museum Assistance Policy, the section also administers a program of financial and advisory assistance to community museums operated by local organizations throughout the province. In this budget we are lifting the moratorium through the financial assistance program so that more sites can participate. We are also making, as I mentioned earlier, Highland Village a provincial museum site.
The Heritage and Culture Branch is also responsible for the Heritage Unit, which administers the Heritage Property Act. The purpose of the act is to identify, preserve and encourage the continued use of Nova Scotia's built heritage. The division works with municipalities and owners to find effective, economically viable and appropriate uses for our heritage buildings, recognizing their importance to our character and to our economy. Some financial assistance is available to owners of registered heritage properties for conservation work, conservation plans, and special projects to support municipalities and heritage groups.
[4:00 p.m.]
Another key section in Heritage and Culture is the Cultural Affairs Division. Its mission is to develop and promote cultural resources and artistic expression in partnership with and for Nova Scotians. Some of the major clients of Cultural Affairs includes performing arts centres across the province, cultural institutions and major cultural organizations. It also provides export development assistance to craft producers and others. The division also provides financial resources to the arts and culture sector throughout Nova Scotia, including the Nova Scotia Arts Council. This arm's-length agency assists professional arts and arts organizations to produce and present their work using a peer jury process. The council also carries out research and education on matters relating to the arts and administers the Nova Scotia Arts Endowment Fund.
Cultural Affairs also supports and operates facilities and programs, including the Nova Scotia Centre for Craft and Design as a showcase for the work of approximately 200 craftspeople and designers from across the province; Contact East, a performing arts buyers showcase; and the Nova Scotia Talent Trust, an independent organization that provides scholarships for pre-professional training in the arts. In addition, Cultural Affairs acquires and
maintains a collection of art and craft on behalf of the Province of Nova Scotia in the Nova Scotia Art Bank, a loan program of contemporary Nova Scotia art used in government offices.
The Heritage and Culture Branch also provides a liaison between the department and several institutions which have their own boards, including the Public Archives of Nova Scotia/Nova Scotia Records Management. The Public Archives acquires and preserves government and private sector records of provincial significance and facilitates access to those records. It also develops policies, standards, procedures and services for effective records management in government and is the permanent repository of the records of public bodies. In addition, it encourages and assists the professionalization of archival and records management activities within the public and private sectors.
Heritage and Culture also provides liaison with the Art Gallery of Nova Scotia. The mission of the Art Gallery is to serve the public by bringing the visual arts and people together in an environment which encourages exploration, dialogue and enjoyment. This is achieved by providing leadership in the development and preservation of quality collections, exhibitions, and education and public programs. As noted earlier, we will be providing operating support to the Art Gallery's Western Branch in Yarmouth. The western gallery is scheduled to open in 2001. This year's funding will support the development costs of that project.
Another area of our department is Protocol. It manages provincial protocol activities, including providing protocol advice and assistance to the Lieutenant Governor, the Premier, the Speaker, Executive Council and to the public; organizing events for the Lieutenant Governor, the Premier, the Speaker and Executive Council; and providing assistance to other government departments. In addition, it administers logistics and hospitality for special visits of dignitaries and promotes Nova Scotia business, artisans and culture through government sponsored events, conferences and the government gift bank. As well, it operates a flag and ceremonial item lending service and a congratulatory certificate program.
Aside from my duties with Tourism and Culture, I am responsible for the Nova Scotia Youth Secretariat which plays a key role in coordinating the development of strategies and approaches to addressing the needs and aspirations of the youth of this province. It also provides support and coordination to the Nova Scotia Youth Advisory Council, a group of 15 young Nova Scotians who provide advice to government on youth issues and concerns. Activities include: participating in the development of a coordinated approach to serving children and youth through the Children and Youth Action Committee; conducting research on youth issues and concerns; collecting and sharing information on youth programs, services, needs and aspirations; coordinating youth participation in government decision making through support to the Nova Scotia Youth Advisory Council; and providing a "single window" entry point to government for non-governmental youth serving organizations.
Before wrapping up my remarks, I would like to focus on the department's priorities for the next fiscal year. On the tourism side, we are working with the Tourism Partnership Council and industry stakeholders to develop an updated three to five year Nova Scotia tourism strategy. This will focus on the integration of annual marketing and product development plans with input sessions planned across the province.
We are also implementing the joint industry/government 2000 Marketing Plan and are currently active in all markets. Inquiries for 2000 are up some 20 per cent, which bodes well for the industry. Highlights of the 2000 plan includes high impact marketing campaigns promoting Nova Scotia to our core markets, which include Atlantic Canada, Quebec, Ontario, New England and the mid-Atlantic States, as well as markets being developed for the longer term, including Europe and western Canada. The integrated marketing program employs a mix of advertising, direct mail, Internet marketing, tourism literature and direct sales activities targeting consumers, travel trade and travel writers. The 2000 plan's objective is a 6.5 per cent overall increase in tourism revenues.
The 2000 plan also includes marketing partnerships with both the private sector and other government agencies. These partnerships play a pivotal role in marketing Nova Scotia by providing financial leverage and competitive products, creating strategic alliances that are more effective in promoting the province as a destination. Those partnerships include ones with airlines such as Canada 3000, Icelandair and Air Canada; with ferry companies such as Prince of Fundy and Bay Ferries; with regional tourism associations throughout the province; and with individual operators. We also have partnerships with the Canadian Tourism Commission and the Atlantic Canada Tourism Partnership. A recent initiative was a travel trade mission with over 20 Nova Scotia companies visiting five key U.S. markets with their Atlantic Canadian counterparts.
For 2000 we also have the most extensive and comprehensive tourism literature plan ever initiated, including introduction of a nature and outdoors guide and golf guide developed with sector organizations. In addition, we are enhancing Internet marketing through the province's tourism marketing website, including the electronic fulfilment in English, French and German, and on-line reservations integrated with improvements to Check In. The plan for 2000 also calls for expanded activities and increased programming in Maine and market expansion initiatives in Ontario and Quebec.
Above and beyond these initiatives, department staff are involved in Tall Ships 2000. Staff are working with project organizers to ensure the province is prepared to maximize the benefits of this visit. We are also working with Via Rail, Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation and Tourism Cape Breton to market Via Rail's new tourism excursion. We need the whistle. The Bras d'Or will take visitors on a 10 hour run between Halifax and Sydney. It includes a skyline car with a 360 degree dome in addition to scenic stops, costumed guides and entertainment.
Beyond marketing, our goals for 2000 include further development and implementing new market-readiness programs to assist in enhancing the competitiveness and quality of Nova Scotia's tourism industry. We are talking about working with communities to ensure that Nova Scotia is prepared to offer those things that visitors want. As examples, there is our work with the Town of Lunenburg to build on its designation as a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Efforts will focus on providing an enhanced interpretation of Lunenburg's history and heritage through high-quality interpretive media located throughout the "Old Town" area of the community.
In addition, work is under way to prepare for a 2000 Visitor Exit Survey. The Visitor Exit Survey is one of the main components in determining the true value of tourism in Nova Scotia. Visitor exit surveys have been conducted in Nova Scotia every two to four years since 1966. Staff conduct the random surveys at key entry points throughout the province. We are working on initiatives that are helping to extend Nova Scotia's tourism season such as extending operations at the Amherst and Port Hastings Visitor Information Centres and providing support for Celtic Colours. (Interruption) Did I say that already? I am sorry, I am repeating myself.
On the seasonality front, plans are also in place to expand implementation of the Nova Scotia Autumn Leaf Watch Program to encourage travel and length of stay in the fall season. The program was developed by the Tourism Division and coordinated by the Nova Scotia Museum of Natural History. In addition, we are streamlining the process for inspection and licensing of accommodation properties.
On the cultural and heritage side, we are developing and implementing a new market readiness program to assist in enhancing the competitiveness and export potential of Nova Scotia's cultural enterprises. We are working with the cultural and heritage community to implement the Nova Scotia Culture Sector Strategy. We are revising the Museum Assistance Program to allow participation by more Nova Scotian communities, and we are developing and implementing a program to provide strategic support for project-based initiatives for community museums throughout Nova Scotia.
The province's museums will also launch exciting programs this year, including bringing Theodore Tugboat to the Maritime Museum. This will assist young Nova Scotians and visitors to begin to understand and appreciate the province's marine heritage. In addition, the Museum of Natural History will once again host its successful summer exhibits and programs. As well, we are adopting the Nova Scotia Highland Village into the provincial museum system to strengthen the Nova Scotia Museum's presence in Cape Breton.
In summary, our department, like all other areas of government, has defined our priorities in order to help Nova Scotia deal with the deficit. Difficult decisions have been made regarding our priorities. While some areas of the department are facing reductions, new investments will help drive provincial revenues in order to pay for essential government
services. These investments are being directed towards both tourism and culture development with a focus on rural Nova Scotia. The resulting budget and goals of our department reflect the government's commitment to growing the economic and social significance of both sectors so key to the economic future of rural Nova Scotians. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Now we will have an opportunity to hear some questions from the Opposition caucuses. We will start off with the Liberal caucus.
The honourable member for Victoria.
MR. KENNETH MACASKILL: Mr. Minister, it is nice to see a Cape Breton Cabinet Minister in Tourism and I think this is your first time to be before the committee. You sounded like a pro to probably some people who would not know or understand from your speech that everything was rosy in tourism. Some of the questions I am going to ask you this afternoon, I am sure you will be familiar with them because they are related to my constituency and Cape Breton Island in general. I know you will be familiar with the questions. You started off by mentioning that your budget went down by $2 million, from $38 million to $36 million, and you spoke for close to an hour.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thirty-nine minutes.
MR. MACASKILL: Was it 39 minutes, okay, I am sorry, but it felt like an hour. (Laughter) However, Mr. Minister, I will not be too hard on you, to break you into this committee. I cannot say for the rest of my colleagues, they will be on their own. Before you left the Chamber you did mention the Highland Village and you mentioned it three times in your remarks. So probably that is where we will begin. You mentioned about it receiving the status of a provincial museum or I guess that is known as the community museum, is it?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The Nova Scotia Museum family.
MR. MACASKILL: The Nova Scotia Museum and if I recall, when we were in government, that was on our agenda, but I guess at the time we were waiting for the bucks to go with the status. Can you tell us, today, if the dollars are there to have the museum move ahead into provincial status?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes, one of the things I did notice, and as the honourable member for Victoria knows full well, is that in Cape Breton Island we only had one as part of the Nova Scotia Museum family, the family of 25, I guess this will make it 26. The opportune museum in Cape Breton for that is the Highland Village, which has been looking to become part of the family since a number of years and has been recommended by the board of governors during the time of the previous government. The dollars are there for the museum and it will be going up to $300,000 for operations this year which, from the Department of Tourism and Culture, will be double what they had last year.
Not only that, the museum, I think one of the significant things that, and I know you know all about it, or the member for Victoria, is that it gives something that is different to the Nova Scotia Museum family and I think it was needed not only because of its central location on the Island, it serves a lot of communities in Inverness County, Victoria, the Sydney area and Richmond, but it is promoting the Gaelic culture which I feel is very important, obviously, maybe because I am a little bit biased because that is part of my culture, but I do feel that it was a good move to do it. I think it was something that I am sure you are happy to see as the member for that area and with that, they do need the money to operate. They have done a lot of work over the past number of years, as you well know, on various buildings and they have put a lot of hours in. I think of people like Jim St. Clair, who you may know, . . .
MR. MACASKILL: Yes.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: . . . and Rodney Chaisson from the Highland Village who has put numerous hours and I know made a lot of calls to our department with respect to that and I think it is appropriate that their names should be mentioned and many other people as well. So, you know, I think it is a real welcome addition to the museum network and it is not only good as far as the Nova Scotia Museum, but I think it is good for the smaller museums and I think of ones like the museum in Orangedale or I think of the museum in another place, the Inverness Miners Museum, or whether it is a museum in Sydney, whether it is Cossit House which is the other Nova Scotia Museum in Cape Breton. So, you know, I think it was time that we grew the Nova Scotia Museum family in Cape Breton Island.
MR. MACASKILL: Can you tell me what percentage of the provincial museum budget now goes to Cape Breton Island? Has this increased the percentage of the provincial museum budget that comes to Cape Breton? I know before the number was very small and has this increased it and where did it come from?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: To the honourable member, I guess with respect, right now what it is doing is it is doubling the amount of Nova Scotia Museum family in Cape Breton. Cossit House this year will be receiving $36,500. So as far as the Nova Scotia Museum family, it is dramatically increasing the amount of funding going to Cape Breton. In fact, again, as I said, it is doubling what the Highland Village is getting and so it is having an effect on that. Again, you know, you have to be able to also reach a certain level to be part of the Nova Scotia Museum family and they have gone through numerous evaluations and the board of governors has recommended it. So it is increasing the amount going to the Island which I know is a concern for you.
MR. MACASKILL: Yes, I agree with you, Mr. Minister, that the Highland Village, they did work very hard and they put a lot of volunteer hours into their efforts at the Highland Village and I am happy that you have chosen to give them provincial status and also give them the funding to go with it.
Now I want to move to the Gaelic College, if you could give us an outline of where the Gaelic College stands in terms of its funding? I believe they had been notified that their funding would be cut this year by $50,000 and another $50,000 next year. I know, Mr. Minister, you are very familiar with the Gaelic College, and I think you would support my theory that that would have a devastating effect on the Gaelic College and their operations, to be cut a significant amount like that over a period of two years.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Right now the college, there has been a change for this year, going from $270,000 down to $220,000. With respect to next year, that depends on what the budget will be next year. I don't know what is going to happen next year, we can speculate. All the departments did go through exercises, but really there is a reduction for this year of the $50,000; next year, I don't know for sure what will happen with respect to the college. As with many organizations, they have had to play a part. Having experience at the Gaelic College as an instructor, I do realize a lot of the things that are done there. We feel, as a department, that they will be able to work within that envelope of $220,000. I know they will probably have to make some changes within their budget, but it is very doable.
MR. MACASKILL: Wouldn't you agree that $100,000 in two years is extreme?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: As far as next year, I don't know what is going to happen. This year they are taking a $50,000 cut. With respect to next year, a lot of variables depend on what is going to happen with the budget next year. It is going to depend on a lot of factors, and how well, economically, the province does this year. With respect to next year, I know there has been some discussion amongst people from the college and with staff, and there was some concern raised by the people at the college. There was a conversation with a staff member of mine, and there was an indication that it could possibly be that, but it was really speculation on the staff member's part. We haven't been addressing next year's budget yet.
My deputy minister will be meeting with Sam MacPhee tomorrow to discuss the situation. I can say that in working with the college, I spent a couple of summers there, what I have seen during the past number of years is that they have had a lot of work done at the college, there have been a lot of good things like buildings being fixed up, new buildings going up. A lot of what I feel is a large expense that they have is structural and they have been able to do that over the last few years. I think of the new building that you see as soon as you arrive there, I can't think of the name but they offer fiddle lessons in the basement of one of the buildings there, dancing lessons, Gaelic. I know you did a great job of the Gaelic the other day in the House.
As well, there are a lot of opportunities there for students. I can only speak for my own area, and it has probably affected your area more so, but in Inverness County, I know as a teacher and an educator and a musician, I have tried to push the Gaelic College. It is an opportunity for a start for a lot of children. It has meant a lot to a lot of the children in my area, who you now see playing, people like Blair MacDonald or Jillian and Sheena Boucher, a couple of names which come to mind. They are young, upcoming musicians. It does mean a great deal. They will get through it this year with that funding, I believe they can do it. We are meeting with Mr. MacPhee as well, and we will have more discussions about that.
MR. MACASKILL: You did mention the word Gaelic, and I saw clip out of the Cape Breton Post today, where the Department of Education may be looking at cuts in the Gaelic in several schools across Cape Breton. I know that is not in your department, but the point I am making is that this may be an attack on that culture by severe cuts to the Gaelic College and also to the culture in general from the Department of Education. I am sure there will be some Gaels on the Island and across Nova Scotia who would be concerned about where this government is going relative to the Gaelic language.
Another issue that we have talked about and I have raised in the House a few times this year is provincial resorts. Whether privatizing the management or privatizing the resorts is good or bad, I guess that is the question. We don't know. We have no way of knowing at this present time. In your talks, whenever they take place if they haven't taken place or they have, relative to ownership of the land at Keltic, would your vision be of the Highland Links as well as Ingonish and making that a package?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: With respect to the Keltic Lodge, the Highland Links, we don't run the Highland Links, the federal government does. I know you raised the question in the House, regarding the land and so on, with regard to the resort, regarding the federal government. My staff have been in contact with federal staff regarding that issue. There are talks about that as well, they are ongoing. They have been going on for the past week to two weeks, and we will be having further discussions with the minister involved federally.
With respect to the private sector management contract, we feel that from a marketing point of view it would be better having a national or international chain for not just Keltic, but for the three of them together, Digby Pines and Liscombe Lodge. I do know that you have some concerns about that. There is also the side of it, not only from the marketing point of view but also in order to maintain the quality of standard that is there - they are high-quality resorts - you would have to start looking at making some strategic investments. I think of things like air conditioning in particular, I believe it is in Digby Pines . . .
MR. MACASKILL: But wouldn't you agree that the large part of the clientele or the largest number of clientele that uses Keltic Lodge are golfers are they not?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The largest part is actually tour operators, but there is a significant portion as well that go there for golf. That clientele is often looking for a high-end product and that is what we promote in the marketplace as the three resorts, the high-end product, to encourage people who not only come to the province for those three, because they are strategically located in the province, Cape Breton, Guysborough and Digby. They lure a lot of other tourists to other locations in between.
MR. MACASKILL: Another issue that I want to talk to you about was golf courses. As you know there were attempts to build a golf course in Inverness on a piece of Crown land. Does that mean that Inverness may not get a golf course, is that developer prepared to seek out land in another place and develop a golf course? I believe we need another golf course on the Island, on the Cabot Trail or in proximity of the Cabot Trail. Everyday we constantly hear of the excitement over golfing, and I believe we need another world-class golf course.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: You bring up a good point, and we have the Fabulous Foursome on the Island. We have Le Portage in Cheticamp, we have the golf course in Baddeck, we have Dundee and Highland Links, and there is room for another one. I guess you were speaking of Inverness County, you were talking in regard to a golf course, the land in Mabou. Is that the one you were speaking about?
MR. MACASKILL: Yes.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: As I understand, the gentleman who was looking at possibly doing that is looking at doing another one, which is near the same area, and looking at going into a partnership, possibly, with a couple of other people, somebody from another part of Canada and somebody from the States. There is still a possibility of that. It would be located between the Mabou and Port Hood area. As I understand, it would be high-end golf course. It is rumour at this point.
[4:30 p.m.]
MR. MACASKILL: I want to move to the Tall Ships 2000 for a moment and ask you, as a minister representing Cape Breton, have you made any efforts to move some of those Tall Ships to Cape Breton Island, to the Bras d'Or Lakes or around the Cheticamp or Cabot Trail area?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The Tall Ships is going to be a great event this year. The most impact that you are going to see is here in Halifax. I believe the estimation is 150 ships. We are going to see some in Cape Breton as well at auxiliary ports. Baddeck is going to see, I'm not sure of the number of ships offhand, I can't think, I believe Louisbourg, St. Peters and possibly Sydney as well. They are making some visits, and they will be going down through the Bras d'Or Lakes. If you do require more information with regard to how many
ships, I can have a staff member contact you with that information if you would like that. I don't have it at my fingertips here.
MR. MACASKILL: But the possibility of them going to other ports than the ones you mentioned . . .
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The Tall Ships organization looked at the variety of places on the Island, the ones that were looked at and are going to happen is in Baddeck, St. Peters, Louisbourg, and Sydney. There are four on Cape Breton. It is fairly significant in regard to the rest of the province.
MR. MACASKILL: I recall during the quincentennial celebrations, the Cabot celebrations, they visited a number of small ports around the trail, Cheticamp, St. Anns Bay, Baddeck, and Ingonish. That added greatly to the tourists and visitors to the areas, and that is why I ask the question of you today.
Where is our famous ship the Bluenose? Will it spend much time in Nova Scotia this summer?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes it will. It will be one of the premier ships here during the Tall Ships celebration. I just want to mention to you, you were mentioning the other ports, the organizers have organized it for those four ports. If another port wanted to go after a ship that was here, they still can. It is very difficult with scheduling and so on. Because not all the ships will be staying, some of them will be travelling across the Atlantic after they leave Halifax. There is only a portion of the ships remaining around the province.
MR. MACASKILL: Is there a cost associated with a visit to a port?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes. We have a cost-share program with EDA, and it is in the $100,000 range.
MR. MACASKILL: Okay, Mr. Minister, thank you. I will turn the rest of my time over to my colleague.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member for Lunenburg West.
MR. DONALD DOWNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thought for sure the minister and my colleague would have broken out in Gaelic somewhere during that conversation and carried on so none of us would understand but all of us would respect and admire your ability. I assume you speak Gaelic.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: A little bit. Not as much as the member for Victoria. Obviously you heard the great Gaelic he has. I have some but not enough.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We wouldn't have the translation services here anyway.
MR. DOWNE: They would tell us. I am sure they are honest. Minister, I want to say that Tourism and Culture must be one of the more exciting portfolios in government and certainly has great potential. We all can see that. Tourism plays a vital role in my area along the South Shore, so I am going to geographically move you from Cape Breton to other parts of the Province of Nova Scotia. Notwithstanding that, I do appreciate the efforts that are being made to stimulate economic growth in Cape Breton in light of all the serious economic problems that are currently there. Tourism can play a role. I would hate to see Cape Breton turn into just a park, but I would like to see it turn into more than just that, but I do appreciate the efforts that are being made.
We talk about four seasons in Nova Scotia. Although I moved from British Columbia, I was born in the Maritimes, and I was used to the four seasons, but I kind of got used to the two seasons out there. The rain and the sunshine. New Brunswick has done a great job with regard to trails and things of that nature. What do you see for the future of the winter season for Nova Scotia, and what are you looking at doing to develop a stronger presence of Nova Scotia in competing against those snowmobile, cross-country skiing, winter ice-fishing, whatever dollars that are currently going to New Brunswick?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I can comment on a couple of things. One that comes to mind, with you being from the South Shore, is the South Shore did something through the destination marketing program. They did a winter tourism guide. We have a difficulty in that New Brunswick is very fortunate in having a strong winter. They can rely on the snow to a greater extent than we can. For example the winter tourism through the destination marketing was very successful in the South Shore area. Following doing the program, looking at the numbers, accommodations they had sold did go up quite dramatically. Not too long ago, being at the South Shore Tourism Association meeting, they were speaking about that. It has probably been one of the most successful in the province.
What we have had to do, another example would be Keltic Lodge. We had the winter season open there for seven days a week. We didn't get great snow there. It was diversifying, having things that are going to attract people there for weekend events such as theatre, music, live entertainment. So those are the things we have been trying to do as well as keeping the Visitor Information Centre in Amherst, for example, open longer, so that visiting tourists coming in November and December can get the same material about the province, can have the opportunity to find out where the best places are or where some of the best areas are to visit in the province, whether it is in December or July.
MR. DOWNE: Or October or whatever. The issue of our trails, and I really support the trail provisions and opportunities we have, and negotiating from CN to acquire most of the CN lines and we are acquiring more. The Rails to Trails Program or the TransCanada
Trails program, can you tell me where you are with those trail initiatives? How will they be structured from community to community?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Right now with the TransCanada Trail we are one of the funding partners with regard to that and the abandoned rail lines. I know that is an important issue in your area, and it is an important issue in my area as well. Again the trails will connect a variety of places around the province. We are looking at continuing working in that respect. One thing that comes to mind is the new guide that we have, the Nature Lover's Guide, which incorporates a lot of things and trails are one of them. As well, down the road, we are going to be taking over trails from Natural Resources as indicated. It is going to become a focal point in the department until we go through that change, that will be over the next year.
MR. DOWNE: The trails program is one that will be transferred over to you as well as the other parks, I assume, with the restructuring if I read it right. That is why I was interested to see if there is a strategy going. Part of that, as I recall, is that communities will actually be a part of developing strategies internally as to what will and what will not happen on those because that was part of the Rails to Trails legislation we brought in some number of years ago. What I was interested in seeing from a departmental point of view now in Tourism, how we can capture the opportunities of that, as well as involving communities in developing some of those strategies. They have been very successful in other jurisdictions. When you see the Europeans come here, and they can actually go for nature walks and they see wildlife. We had a helicopter tour of some of them from a forestry point of view. Down in the Digby area by the Tobeatic, he almost jumped out of the helicopter because he had seen some bear and moose and it was unbelievable. So there is a great potential there. I just hope that you are cognizant of that and are fitting that in part of your fall and spring strategy because you will be taking it over by the end of this year.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Certainly, and we have spent about $1.5 million with regard to that in working with communities over the past year and working on trail development with communities. Although you did mention that the Rails to Trails was led by Natural Resources, I believe Sport and Rec is involved in that as well. Again, it is going to become an even more focal point with my department as we move forward over the course of the next year. Again, with our niche markets especially in Europe, it is, as you said, a lot of tourists, a great majority of tourists come here because of the natural beauty and the landscape. But you mentioned the fall and the spring as well.
There are other items which come to mind. Maybe only a little bit off topic here, but I think of things such as Celtic Colours which is emphasizing the shoulder season in October, and we are making an investment in that this year, and also for the following year. Sorry, this past year, is going for this October, and this budget here we have committed money for the following year so they can plan ahead. I don't know if I made sense, if you understood what I was saying there.
MR. DOWNE: Maybe it is just I cannot hear you very well. That is my problem. It is not that you are doing something wrong. I will try again. You are taking over parks, and the trails program as well. I will rephrase the question. What about the protected areas? Is that going to stay in Environment, or are you taking that over as well? The Wilderness Areas Protection Act it is called.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: We won't be taking over the protected areas. We will be looking after the parks, beaches, and trails, and the marketing, but not the Wilderness Areas Protection Act. I apologize for your not being able to hear me, I am trying to speak as loud as possible. Oh, you are moving closer.
AN HON. MEMBER: There is something obviously wrong with the mike.
MR. DOWNE: It is a virtue for you to be young, you see. You don't have to worry about that.
So the Wilderness Areas Protection Act will be staying, or the protected areas will be staying with Environment. The other parks are going to be moving to you with the maintenance by Department of Transportation and Public Works, and the enforcement by Justice. Now, as minister responsible for promotion of the parks, all the different campground parks, the most beautiful parks in the Province of Nova Scotia, how do you manage a park and campground, and I assume beaches will be part of you as well, how do you manage that from a ministerial point of view, if Justice isn't doing its enforcement and if DoTPW doesn't want to provide the cash to fix the facilities that are required? How are you going to manage three other departments. Who is the lead out of this thing?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Well, one of the things we are doing now, and that is again over the course of this year, we are going to be looking at a lot of those items which do come up, as we look at how we are going to roll out the change. So there are going to be some difficulties to overcome with regard to incorporating the three departments together and taking a leading role. We are working through that now to see how we are going to play it out. Again, as we have just started talks, we do have a committee set up looking at that, and that will be taking over the next number of months. A lot of those decisions with regard to the parks will have to be ironed out.
MR. DOWNE: Do you think you are going to save money?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: What I think is the most important part of it - and I don't have a dollar figure how much will be saved or not saved to be honest with you right here until we go through the change - but I can say, I think it is a better fit, I feel, with my department. I think many other people feel that as well. Parks and beaches, they are a natural fit with us. We are promoting these areas and all areas of the province anyway, so it is a natural fit. I do hear your concern, and I will certainly take it under advisement.
MR. DOWNE: From a promotional point of view, I agree with you. Tourism promotes everything about the beauty of Nova Scotia, and when you have the taste of Nova Scotia or whatever you are doing, you are not the Minister of Fisheries. You are looking at the province on a 30,000-foot elevation and you are picking out the most beautiful areas of the province and you are going to promote that. I just don't know how you are going to manage it. But anyway, I am sure we will have time to try to, obviously you don't know. I guess the answer is you don't know how we are going to manage that yet.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Again at this time that is why we have the working committee to work out some of the problems we may be facing with regard to that.
MR. DOWNE: It is going to be interesting, too, when you have 3.4 persons looking after parks, because you have 2.6 persons looking after fire suppression.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: With what, sorry?
MR. DOWNE: Fire suppression. I am looking at DNR. You have a half a person, talking about those point sixes or point eights or whatever, but anyway, you have half a person responsible for parks, but he also spends another period of time over in fire suppression. So now all of a sudden you have to find out how you are going to manage that. You are either going to be less than what the complement was before, or you are going to be more than the complement was before. But I will say that Rissers Beach and a number of the other beaches in our area, Crescent Beach and others, are very important to the community. We have established, years ago, partnerships with communities. We have Crescent Beach Community Group. Invariably we have a group of people who are empowered to help look after and develop strategies for the beach. I have been very involved with that process. I think one of your colleagues lost the election on part of that.
Anyway, it has always been a challenge when we do the beach cleanup, trying to get the porta-potty and the barrels down there in time for everybody to do it. DNR has always been very cooperative. The obvious question they are going to have next year is, who do I call about getting my porta-potties and my barrels down there to clean up. Invariably, minister, I will probably call you so that you can call DoTPW, and if they don't get them down there, you will phone Justice to make sure they will enforce them to make sure they get them there. Is that how it is going to work?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: We will have it ironed out. Don't worry.
MR. DOWNE: We will see how it goes, and I am sure we will have lots of questions. Now, you mentioned in your fairly brief opening remarks, it was the first time I ever heard anybody try close down three times. It was pretty good. You must have great writers in your department.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Great writers. Great communication people.
MR. DOWNE: You said Transportation is going to play a vital role, and I agree. Transportation is vitally important to getting people to and from, and the infrastructure of Transportation is key. My question to you is will you have direct input in determining what roads will be done with the Department of Transportation as it relates specifically to Tourism as that has been an issue that you have talked about quite a few times.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The thing which comes to mind with regard to Transportation is the Tourism Partnership Council which the member for Cape Breton South, the former minister of Economic Development and Tourism . . .
MR. DOWNE: Say that again?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I am saying what comes to mind is the Tourism Partnership Council. We do have a committee on the council, and there are 14 representatives from the industry and two from our staff. The priorities have been identified through the committee and sent to Transportation and Public Works. I know that they have been looking at those with regard to when they are making their decisions as well as all the other variables which they do look at, not only with regard to roads, but also air transportation. We have partnerships with Canada 3000, Air Canada, Icelandair, and a few others.
MR. DOWNE: We have specific routes across this province that are geared from a tourism point of view. Absolutely beautiful drives. I have driven virtually all of them. Would you say that those specific areas will be priorized by the Department of Transportation as we build on a stronger tourism industry?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The priorities which were sent to Transportation were the scenic travelway routes, so that is what was sent to Transportation and Public Works. I am from Cape Breton and I guess I think of a lot of Cape Breton items, but an example of that would be the Cabot Trail or you have the Sunrise Trail or you have whatever trail it might be. Certainly it is one of the largest issues in the tourism community, the transportation aspect. Without good roads people are not going to come back. I know that my acting deputy before Christmas, he is now the Deputy Minister of Transportation, so with that in mind, I think it also provides a good opportunity for someone to be in Transportation who has seen the Tourism side of it as well.
MR. DOWNE: Just so I understand this, you made a comment that because you are from Cape Breton and the road issue there is a priority, and secondly because your former deputy minister is now Deputy Minister of Transportation, you are going to have control over the minister's agenda on transportation or you just have good working relationship?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: What I meant was that the deputy minister, having been an Acting Deputy Minister of Tourism has had the opportunity to hear a lot of the concerns raised by the tourism industry. I think that is important, and it is just the point I wanted to make.
MR. DOWNE: Yes. You have him educated. All right. Fort Point Museum and DesBrisay Museum are in my riding. Fort Point Museum is community operated to some degree. The other was is LaHave Islands Marine Museum. DesBrisay Museum is a provincial museum, and it is doing reasonably well. We have fund-raised and expanded the facility, and have a meeting room now through infrastructure money and just fund-raising by Friends of DesBrisay Museum. But the smaller ones, Fort Point Museum and LaHave Islands Museum are always struggling for access to cash. Is it the strategy of the minister for these smaller museums to turn them over to the communities, to partner with the communities or turn them over to communities? Is that the long-term strategy so communities can actually operate those smaller museums?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The community museums are run by the community, but the LaHave Islands Museum in your riding.
MR. DOWNE: All three of them are in my riding.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Fort Point, LaHave, and what was the third one?
MR. DOWNE: LaHave Islands, Fort Point, DesBrisay is the one in Bridgewater.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Now I am having trouble hearing you.
MR. DOWNE: Gosh. We should have earphones or something. Are their budgets increased, or are they cut any this year?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: They are all maintaining the funding they received last year. I can give you the amounts if you would like.
MR. DOWNE: Sure.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Fort Point is receiving $4,300; DesBrisay is receiving $28,800, and LaHave is receiving $3,900.
MR. DOWNE: $3,900?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes, $3,900.
MR. DOWNE: One of the things we have always tried to do is have summer employment for people. That is gone now, or is there going to be a summer employment program for helping to host and keep these facilities open?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: You would be referring to the Provincial Employment Program which is through the Department of Economic Development. As I understand I know there has been some effect in this budget for the PEP, but there is still a program there. Although it has been targetted for a lot of the rural areas of the province and especially areas, depending on the range of unemployment, but the Minister of Economic Development would give you a better idea of the exact numbers if you are interested in that.
MR. DOWNE: Are you going to be able to, where these are so vital to tourism, and they are so vital to our cultural and historical background - Champlain was there at Fort Point - is there any way that you can promote the issue to keep these facilities open? I mean, you can imagine a budget of $3,900 trying to staff, operate, look after, maintain a museum. Give me break. So these people have a lot of dinners, suppers, fund-raisers to try to make it work. But without staff to help with that, they just cannot open. My riding might not be a priority this year. If it isn't, I need to know that the Minister of Tourism is going to work very hard for those communities because they are important.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I think the fact that they are maintained says something in a time when there have been reductions. I understand your concern because at one time a local museum in my riding I was very much involved in, and the same thing, dinners, suppers. It is not always easy. I would love to give a lot more money so they wouldn't have to worry about it.
MR. DOWNE: I appreciate under the financial situation that they weren't cut, sincerely. The staffing issue, I might have to go to you at some point in time, minister and say, I am going to need some people to operate these facilities because they are just not going to be able to operate them. Volunteers go in, but they need it.
The year 2004 is a big year in this province. It is going to be Champlain, commemorating 400 years of French involvement in the Province of Nova Scotia, if I recall correctly. Can you tell me what the province is doing to commemorate and to promote - the Acadian community is very keen and working very hard on it - can you tell me what you are doing as a department to work with communities in the promotion? Secondly, just while you are thinking about that, I talked to the Ambassador for France when I was minister and he has offered to help. I hope maybe somebody from the department could contact the attaché out of New Brunswick, the Consul General of France in New Brunswick, he was at the meeting, and carry on with the ambassador. They have offered to help, and I think I had to buy them a case of wine out of my own money to make it happen, but anyway, his office said, don't lose that.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I guess a couple of comments. This past August we did go down to the marketing division down in Louisiana to promote the 2004. As well, we have $20,000 which is being targetted at the committee for 2004. I believe the federal government is also involved in that committee. We have a staff member who is on the committee as well. It is something we are looking forward to because it is such a big event to the Acadian community. One of the things - and again I do refer back to the former Minister of Economic Development and Tourism when he had the portfolio - was initiating the French Doers and Dreamers Guide which has been very successful. The number of enquiries was well over 100 per cent, I believe closer to 150 per cent, so we have a strong Acadian culture here in the province, and it is very important to promote it, whether it is in the member for Richmond's riding or for Argyle. In my own riding, I have a strong Acadian community in Cheticamp, so certainly, we are looking forward to 2004.
[5:00 p.m.]
MR. DOWNE: Minister, I have five minutes before I have to start asking questions in the other Chamber, and I have some real quick ones if you can answer.
UNESCO, Lunenburg, the Town of Lunenburg, the kiosk, the information session, some of that is great. They have a sewage problem. Is there anything you as minister can do to help, because at some point in time, UNESCO has certified this, one of the few places in the world, people who come to the heritage city and they start seeing we have problems with that. Can you, maybe at a later date inform me, but can you help champion some of the concerns that the town has with regard to that problem? It is not my riding, it is a minister's riding. But that is one.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I will certainly bring it up with the minister. With any infrastructure such as water and sewer in many other places, I think of the member for Victoria's riding as well in Baddeck, they also have a problem with that. I know there has been discussion regarding that issue. It is an issue in many of the communities. It is a large issue in the tourism community, and I will certainly bring it up with the minister.
MR. DOWNE: I have a million more questions, but obviously I haven't got enough time. I have someone to fill in for me to fill out my time.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have nine minutes left.
The honourable member for Cape Breton North.
MR. RUSSELL MACLELLAN: Yes, I just want to follow up, particularly on the Bras d'Or Lakes. It is environmental I know, but it is very important in tourism because the potential in tourism in Cape Breton is centred to a large degree around the Bras d'Or Lakes. There seems to be a preponderance for not dealing with pollution. Boats, for instance, are
dumping ballast water in the Bras d'Or Lakes, boats that shouldn't be allowed to do that. In fact, this water is coming in from wherever they pick up the ballast water, and they dump in the Bras d'Or Lakes. I think the minister knows this has caused the beginnings of some very unwanted marine life which is very difficult now to control. The boats in Nova Scotia are not forced to have catch basins which means the toilets flush right into the lakes. I was wondering if there are any plans on both of those areas to make changes that would in fact help the pristine nature of the Bras d'Or Lakes.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: That issue was also brought up during the Cape Breton Economic Development meeting handled by Sister Peggy Butts. She brought that up. It is an issue only recently I discussed, not only recently, but I have discussed it just last week with the Minister of Housing and Municipal Affairs to discuss that issue. I know in the Baddeck area there is a need for increased infrastructure with regard to the water and sewer. Some of the things you are educating me on here today with regard to the sailboats, I will be honest with you, with regard to the unwanted marine life and so on. It is a concern all across the province, again. It wouldn't only be my department. It is more of a coordinated approach between my department and Housing and Municipal Affairs. With regard to boaters, we are getting into Transportation again. I am sure it is an issue with regard to the boaters that would be something Transportation would be looking at. It is an issue we are discussing with regard to the Bras d'Or Lakes, especially around the Baddeck area.
MR. MACLELLAN: My conversation with boaters indicates that they don't mind some kind of regulations placed on them, as long as the regulations are placed on all boaters and not just some. If they feel this is something that will apply across the board and that it is going to be maintained and not let go, then they are quite prepared to do their share. The other two features are of course, we have under-estimated the sewage treatment plant in Eskasoni, it may not be, especially at times of heavy rains, adequate. Then of course there is the sewage treatment system in Baddeck which is inadequate, and the other feature is septic systems on the shores of the Bras d'Or Lakes. There are still no septic systems in some places, and other places there are old septic systems which are inadequate. Leaching is going into the Bras d'Or Lakes now. There is the possibility of considering a regulation which would enforce proper septic systems if you border on the Bras d'Or Lakes. People who don't do it will have it done for them and applied against the property as a lien, interest bearing, and that money would have to be spent before that property could be sold. These are ways of doing something.
The minister may very well understand all this, but I am very concerned. There is a group, as you know, working on a UNESCO designation as one of the world's natural protected sites similar to the designation that was awarded Lunenburg. If that is done, then that is a major achievement, but it won't be done unless these things are followed through. I know that doesn't fall entirely within the minister's department, but someone has to get the ball rolling. Unfortunately, when we were in government, we just weren't there long enough to get this done.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Again, I can tell you the Minister of Housing and Municipal Affairs and I discussed this very issue, and the issue was specifically to Baddeck and that area. With the Bras d'Or Lakes, it touches on my riding as well, the Whycocomagh area and so on. It is a big concern I know for a lot of my own constituents. I will certainly raise the issue again with the Minister of Housing and Municipal Affairs. Even with regard to expanding growth in the Baddeck area, it is very important that we do have to resolve the issue.
MR. MACLELLAN: Is the minister in a position now to tell us who will be getting the contract for the management of the three provincial hotels? Has that been arranged yet?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: No, we haven't gone out. We will be at some time throughout the year going outside for external expertise on the issue. As of this time, there is no management contract in place, but it will be happening over the course from now to the end of December. For the next tourism season we will have something in place, provided that everything goes well.
MR. MACLELLAN: So no contract is in place with any?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: No.
MR. MACLELLAN: I mean, in Ingonish they know every hotel chain that has visited Ingonish, so I . . .
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I have noticed myself quoted in the paper, I think it said there was.
MR. MACLELLAN: The other question I would ask is that as you know that ski hill is in serious difficulty. It may be that the weather patterns won't change, but maybe they will. Maybe with the proper snow-making equipment it could be viable. Is the minister, at the same time he is seeking management of companies to manage the three hotels, is he also looking at the possibility of having one of those companies manage that ski hill, that they would, in fact, take over the ski hill and that could be a feature in a management contract? It would be solving two concerns at one time.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: With regard to the ski hill, it is run by a local community group. So we wouldn't be having that under a management contract.
MR. MACLELLAN: I know that.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: But what we are going to ensure is that part of the contract would have a management, the contract would have the winter side of it integrated into it so as to ensure that someone is not going to close up for the winter season when it is peak skiing season.
MR. MACLELLAN: Yes, but the fact is, the Ingonish Development Corporation is not going to be able to put the money into it that needs to be done, and if it is going to go at all, it is going to have to be run by someone who can afford to do what needs to be done. The ski hill can make money in the summer by tourists renting the chalet and taking people up and down on the lift, and its proximity to the marina that will be there. What I am concerned about is that if something isn't done within the next year, it is going to be lost, it is going to be irrevocable, and that ski hill will never operate again.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I can tell you that I have had staff down in Ingonish to meet with some of the representatives of the committee. I know that part of their community development plan does incorporate a lot of other things than the ski hill. I have had numerous conversations with Mr. Jack MacLeod, and I do realize the concern with regard to equipment and the need for updating it. With regard to the equipment, Economic Development, Minister Balser's department had been handling that issue, although I have had many discussions because of the effect it does have on resorts. Certainly, before having it part of any contract, that would be not only a decision from my end, it would definitely be a decision with the community as they currently operate it, although I do realize they are having troubles.
MR. MACLELLAN: My concern, Mr. Minister, is not only the survival of the hill, which it is a shame to lose something. It is one thing to build it initially, it is another thing to lose something that is already in existence. As you know $100,000 of investment will trigger $650,000 investment by Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation which would do the work. It is doable.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Time.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: If I could answer the question.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You may answer the question, yes.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: One of the thoughts which comes to mind, and I was speaking of it a little bit earlier is the new Tourism Development Fund. It is a $250,000 fund. We are going out later this month to I believe it is eight communities or eight areas, and asking for help in deciding some of the criteria and direct it at rural Nova Scotia. The ski hill in Ingonish may be a perfect fit for that. As yet, we want to get input from the industry with regard to the exact set-up of that fund.
MR. MACLELLAN: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Time now for the NDP caucus to ask questions of the minister.
The honourable member for Halifax Fairview.
MS. EILEEN O'CONNELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome to the minister and his staff. I feel a lot like the man in the Stephen Leacock story who got on his horse and galloped off in all directions, because there is so much going on here today, and there is so little time left. I feel an intense pressure to perhaps not get through everything that I want to ask. But in spite of that, or perhaps because of it, Mr. Minister, I want to talk about something that isn't your responsibility at all.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Perfect. Keep at that as long as you want.
MS. O'CONNELL: I want to talk about the CBC, and the minister will know - and the member for Halifax Bedford Basin also brought in a resolution more recently - we did pass a resolution a couple of weeks ago in the House, passed unanimously, the whole House in support of holding onto regional news in Nova Scotia, at least the remnants of it in Halifax, having lost Sydney and others. So we put in for a late debate today, and I realize the minister has to be here at 6:00 p.m., and I think that is really unfortunate. I am wondering whether there would be some way for the minister either through whoever speaks for the government side or out of either this Chamber or the other to make a clear statement of support.
We have talked about regional culture. We have had this conversation. I think we are pretty close on the importance, not just of the narrow definition of culture, but the broad range of culture. We have the CBC downstairs in the lobby to cover the rally; 1st Edition is here and we are going to have a late debate on it. Will you make a commitment to make a plan with the other Parties for us to either, as a group, all of us, to approach Ottawa, to approach the Heritage Minister, Mr. Rabinovitch? It seems to me that if we all did it together, we might be heard a little bit.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I certainly have no problem. The arts community especially is concerned about CBC. Politically-wise, we always see lots of stories on there as well, but no I have no problem making a statement regarding that. I think an all-Party approach would be the most effective way to do it. I would certainly be willing to work with you or whomever from your caucus on such an issue, and if the Liberal caucus would like to become involved as well. So I have no problem with that.
MS. O'CONNELL: Thank you. What I would really love to see, is see you do that in late debate, but I know you have to be here. I almost don't know where to begin, but I think I will begin with the numbers in the book. I don't comprehend the decline in the budget with the massive increases. Now I am in the Supplementary Detail on Page 20.2 under Net
Program Expenses. The heading is Senior Management. Now the department has had to take its licks apparently with other department in this budget. But when we look at the numbers, I don't see anything about it. I am asking, if you look at five things in that, the Office of the Minister and Deputy Minister has gone up almost $200,000, Administration has gone up $140,000 roughly. The Policy line item has gone up times five from $30,000 to $154,000. That sounds like a lot of policy making to me. Communications has gone from $70,000 to $132,000, and Legal Services has gone up $35,000. Can the minister possibly explain these huge increases?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Certainly. The office with regard to those numbers, the biggest factor is that we only established the department in August of last year, so we weren't running on a full-year budget. You are going by the Forecast, the $270,242, but in actuality, it was an Estimate of $398,000 and now we are at $402,000, so it is roughly the same. With regard to the administration, the change is due to the change in tangible capital assets which the Minister of Finance could explain to you to a greater degree. That has an effect of $43,000. As well, there is an addition of some office space lease for the cultural part of my department of $70,000.
MS. O'CONNELL: That is Cultural Affairs?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes, it is under the administration.
MS. O'CONNELL: So primarily that is because it is a half-year budget on the left side of the page?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: That is primarily it.
MS. O'CONNELL: That seems to fit for the ones that had merely doubled, if you can say that, but the Policy and the Legal Services are certainly substantially more than twice as much. Are you planning to be sued?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The reason for the dramatic change in policy is there were no FTEs budgeted, full-time employees. We were working with Economic Development's policy. So that is why the change.
MS. O'CONNELL: Thank you. The resort hotels, I know that came up before, but very quickly, are you planning to do any studies? Maybe that is what the money is for, I don't know, but are you planning to do any studies to see whether, in fact, private management is more cost-efficient while providing the same service for these government-owned resorts?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Until we go through the process and have a potential supplier in place, it would be difficult to make that assumption now. Again, if you do look at the overall numbers for the resorts, last year we did have $199,000 come into the department as a result of it. This year, we are taking over the golf course at Digby Pines, so we are actually down quite a bit. As far as a cost-benefit analysis - and I think of the Algonquin in New Brunswick - it is something that is commonly done in other jurisdictions with much success. We feel that we can do the same.
MS. O'CONNELL: It has or it hasn't?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: It has been successful there.
MS. O'CONNELL: I wanted to ask you if you have seen the numbers on St. Andrews, New Brunswick? My understanding is, and this came from the TIANS group, that St. Andrews is more costly and that the service has deteriorated substantially. Now are you planning to look at that at all?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Certainly in signing any contract we wouldn't want to, we are not going to just go out and sign any contract as well. We would negotiate the best possible contract and try to have a name with regard to the private sector management contract that would be significant in the marketplace. I don't want to get into names of the different chains, but we would try to get one that was well recognized in the marketplace. There are additional options which may be included in that private sector management contract with regard to investments as far as capital investments, and that would have to be something worked out in that contract.
MS. O'CONNELL: The Arts Council, how much did they lose in this budget?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The Arts Council, last year they had $1.476 million
MS. O'CONNELL: That is $1.476 million from what?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: They are going down to $1.24 million so it was approximately $221,000 which I believe it is a 15 per cent drop.
MS. O'CONNELL: Is that going to come out of the peer review programs do you know, out of the funding for the community grants, the artists grants, and the institutional grants?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: The operating grant, as I understand is going down roughly about 3.8 per cent through the Arts Council, but there will be less number of grants for artists. There will still be the peer assessment panel in place for such things as the tour operating grant. The only reason I am familiar with the tour operating grant, is I have a lot
of fellow musician friends who have applied, and I do know and I do realize what a good program that is and what other ones are that are offered through the Arts Council.
MS. O'CONNELL: I am sorry, I have having trouble making out what you are saying. The operating grant is going down 3.8 per cent?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: It is going down I believe 3.8 per cent. With regard to the additional amount, they will be less grants for working artists. They will reduce the number of grants. I may be talking too close to this mike.
MS. O'CONNELL: I don't know, it could be my ears. So there is a real hit here?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: There is a 15 per cent hit.
MS. O'CONNELL: That is a real hit.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: It is a hit. We feel that we are still making a significant investment as well at $1.2 million. I would love to put $2.2 million, but right now the dollars aren't there. I don't want to get into the interests on the debt and all that. I think that if we get through the next couple of years with our process, we will be able to make significant investments again and add to the number that we already put into it.
MS. O'CONNELL: The Art Gallery of Nova Scotia is losing $177,000 from its core funding. It is my understanding that it is going to institute user fees for school visits to make up for the funding. Is that accurate?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I don't have that information here, but I can get it for the member, and I can have staff contact you with that information. I can tell you that, although there is a 15 per cent reduction, and you mentioned $177,000, one of the main priorities of the Art Gallery was the western branch in Yarmouth. So, although we are taking $177,000 away from the Art Gallery here, we are also making a $100,000 investment in the western gallery branch which is one of their priorities.
MS. O'CONNELL: Well, according to what I read, the western gallery won't appear in the budget for operating expenses until the next budget. Now that is what the Crown Corporation Business Plan book says and what the Arts Gallery magazine says. So is there or is there not money for the western branch in this budget?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes, there is.
MS. O'CONNELL: Is it for capital?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: It is for pre-opening, operating costs for the branch.
MS. O'CONNELL: Pre-opening?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: It is developmental costs and as such. This summer I believe they are having a showcase there in preparation for the opening. It is to help with the pre-opening costs which they are incurring over the course of this year. They will be opening in the spring of next year. So, in fact, it could be even before the next budget.
MS. O'CONNELL: Well I certainly want to go on the record I think. If there are user fees for schools for a public art gallery, this is the way to get people coming and going backwards and forwards. If Education takes a hit, if the gallery takes a hit and so on and so forth. I don't know how those user fees will be exercised, whether only children who can afford it will be able to go out from school that day, or whether the school is going to have to pay for it, it seems to me to be not a very good idea.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I will be truthful for the user fees for young kids. To the best of my knowledge, I wasn't aware of that until now. So I will certainly check into it. We did have a meeting with staff to discuss some of their options, but that wasn't one of them that they were looking at. Of course, there hasn't been a determination on where that money is definitely coming out of or how they will make up for it. It wasn't yet fully determined. Maybe I should turn my mike down, it is quite echoey.
MS. O'CONNELL: Can you confirm, then - this is my last question on this - that the gallery will be losing three staff, public information programs, conservations programs, travelling exhibitions, and that some admissions will go up because of the cuts?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Those are some of the options they did put on the table with my staff. The board itself has yet to make a determination on exactly what they are going to do. I will definitely provide the information to the honourable member if you would like, with regard to what direction it has taken.
MS. O'CONNELL: I have so many questions, but I am being urged to finish up, so I am going to the privatization of the Liquor Commission for a minute. When I requested the terms of reference of the review working committee, I did receive them and thank you for that, and I did receive a list of the members, and we have talked a little bit about it in the House around Question Period. I cannot for the life of me understand why there is no NSGEU rep on this committee. It is not as if they would dominate. There are eight other people on this working review committee. I am stunned that there is no NSGEU representative on this committee. Is there a rationale for that?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I can tell you that the NSGEU will be one of the groups because they are so affected in any process you would do. They will be given the opportunity to make representation to the committee and to be part of the process. Although
I do realize your concern, it was felt at this time that it would be better having their role as far as coming in, to give their ideas and their thoughts.
[5:30 p.m.]
It is a good point that you do make although we felt for the working committee, which is going to be brought into various options, that it was better to not have them as part of the committee itself, but to still give them the representation as far as coming in to share their ideas and their thoughts.
MS. O'CONNELL: I just want to go on the record as saying that it is very different, two very different things, one, to come with your bowl begging and the other one to sit down as an equal to discuss the future of their jobs, their workplace, their job security and everything else. I really have a great deal of difficulty with that and, no doubt, they are concerned about it, too. So I wanted to go on the record about that. I don't know if there is time even to . . .
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Are you going back to the book, back to Tourism?
MS. O'CONNELL: Oh, you had to change your staff, sorry.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: That is fine.
MS. O'CONNELL: Let me just see, I may be able to leave them alone. I listened to what you said about it, but I am still not clear, could you tell me one thing the Youth Secretariat did last year?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes. One of the things the Youth Secretariat, and I can tell you something we are doing currently, there is a completion of a document and the document is entitled Youth and Work and we are coming out with that hopefully by the end of this month. That is one thing. We have the Youth Advisory Council and, there are 11 members on that, six female and five male currently, although it is a 15 member council. We are working on a youth art showcase for this fall and it is going to be incorporating the visual arts and performing arts. It is going to be held in conjunction with the 14th Conference of Commonwealth Education Ministers here in Halifax. We are working closely with Education on that initiative.
MS. O'CONNELL: If the council is done away with, does the secretariat then not exist? Are they married for life?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I hate to do this to the honourable member, I asked her the other day . . .
MS. O'CONNELL: The Youth Advisory Council, which is one of the ABCs, . . .
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Yes.
MS. O'CONNELL: . . . and the secretariat, . . .
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Okay, I see where you are going.
MS. O'CONNELL: . . . are they bonded? If one goes, does the other go?
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: At this time there is no plan on getting rid of the Youth Secretariat and definitely not the Youth Advisory Council. I can tell you if there was such a change, we would maintain the Youth Advisory Council because it is very important for the youth across the province to have a way of voicing their concerns and sharing their ideas. So I can tell you that much, that right now there is no plan on eliminating the Youth Secretariat, but if there is a change, I can tell you that the Youth Advisory Council will be very safe in my opinion.
MR. CHAIRMAN: There is still time for the NDP caucus if they wish to ask any further questions of the Tourism Minister.
The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.
MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: I think there is a pressing engagement outside that the minister might like to join so we have no further questions.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: I have no dancing shoes on.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I see there is no one present from the Liberal caucus to ask any further questions so are there any other further questions from the government caucus for the minister? Hearing none, Mr. Minister, you have some opportunity for some closing remarks.
The honourable Minister of Tourism.
HON. RODNEY MACDONALD: My words are going to be fairly short. I want to thank both Parties for not only advice, but also their questions. As well I would like to thank my staff for coming over. I will certainly take some of your concerns under advisement and I look forward to having a good year in tourism. I think the province is looking at a good year as well for culture. I look forward to any suggestions you would have and I would encourage your caucuses to pass them over to me at any time with regard to any of the material. Again, I would like to thank the Chairman and those who have stayed throughout. At this time I would like to move the estimates for Tourism and Culture.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Minister, and I would like to thank you and your staff for coming here this afternoon to debate your estimates. The motion before the subcommittee is Resolution E36.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I think NSLC is included in there as well. We were questioned on NSLC, the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission, the member for Halifax Fairview. I had staff come over and we had questions regarding NSLC. Unless there is a problem with that, I would like to move that as well as part of the estimates.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will do that in a second then.
Shall Resolution E36 stand?
Resolution E36 stands.
Resolution E47 - Resolved, that the business plan of the Nova Scotia Liquor Commission be approved.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion is carried.
Thank you very much and that concludes the time for the honourable minister.
MR. RODNEY MACDONALD: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I will now call upon the honourable Minister of Transportation and Public Works to make some opening remarks, comments and introduce his staff.
The honourable Minister of Transportation and Public Works.
Resolution E37 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $243,514,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Transportation and Public Works, pursuant to the Estimate and the business plan of Sydney Environmental Resources Limited be approved.
HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, I have staff who will be in shortly but, however, I will start on my opening remarks and then I will open for questions.
Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure to be here today to address the Subcommittee of the Whole House on Supply as it considers my 2000-01 estimates. Please allow me to introduce to my left, Greg Penny, our Director of Finance; and I am sure everybody knows Mr. Martin Delaney who is the Executive Director of District Services; and my Deputy Minister, Howard Windsor, will be along shortly.
Mr. Chairman, before the questions come let me first provide some answers about what we do in this department and what we hope to do. Transportation and Public Works is a sprawling assembly of talented people committed to achieving vital and varied goals across the entire province. The department's mission is to build, maintain and manage our highways, buildings and infrastructure. As well, we provide accommodation and property services for government workers and for the public. We do an outstanding job of fulfilling that mission of serving all Nova Scotians and all the people in government and we are committed to delivering the highest level of service to Nova Scotians and to making sure that taxpayers are getting the most value for their money.
Can we do the things we do better? That is the question, Mr. Chairman. We want to and we have to. The old rules of government no longer apply. This government and this department has to balance its books, to give no special favours, to trim whatever fat we can, to only do the things we can afford, to see if we can find new ways to do things more efficiently and cost-effectively. This budget is the map that puts us on the right path to do all those things. Our budget this year is $250 million, an increase of $10 million over last year. I will get into the specifics of that amount later, but right now I want to tell you about this department and how we will spend the money that we have on behalf of Nova Scotians.
I know that $250 million sounds like a lot of money and indeed it is. Whether you are Bill Gates or a provincial government trying to get its finances in order, it is still a great deal of money, but consider our mandate, our responsibilities, the services we provide, the infrastructure we build and maintain. Consider the enormity of our role and perhaps you will even think that we are a bargain. I am not crying poor either, but we think ourselves fortunate to get this kind of financial support and it is a sign of the government's commitment to making our infrastructure as solid as Nova Scotia granite.
This department is in charge of maintaining 26,000 kilometres of road in Nova Scotia, 14,000 of which are paved. More than 3,500 bridges are in our inventory. From county to county, coast to coast, we employ about 2,000 people, the most of any government department. We are in charge of leasing 1.6 million square feet of office space. We are not only the biggest tenant in the province, we are also the biggest landlord and we want to make sure . . .
MR. MANNING MACDONALD: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I understood that we were not going to entertain any discussion from the Department of Transportation and Public Works today, rather we were going to go to the estimates of the Premier, and we had an agreement with the minister that we were not going to have his estimates dealt with here today. So I fail to understand why the minister is giving us a preamble when we have no intentions of discussing this matter with that minister today. We would rather move on to the Premier's estimates.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Earlier today when I called for order and did the business - and you can check Hansard of the tape - I called in accordance to the Rules and Forms of Procedure, Rule 62 FA(1), the Order of considering Estimates and it states: "Estimates referred to the Subcommittee on Supply shall be considered by the subcommittee in an order determined by the Minister leading the House at the time." I was instructed by the honourable Government House Leader, that after the Department of Labour, it would be the Department of Tourism and then after that the Department of Transportation and Public Works.
MR. WILLIAM ESTABROOKS: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I would look forward to reading those comments and I think it would be appropriate if the minister would table them. That would be certainly well appreciated by myself as the critic for the NDP, but I believe that it would be more time efficient if we could move on to the next matter and I would ask that the minister table his comments for our perusal.
MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, I would be delighted to table my opening remarks when I have read them. They are not going to take all that long and if the honourable members have no question and we have no further interruptions, they will still have lots of time to carry on with other estimates.
MR. ESTABROOKS: Agreed.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable minister does have an opportunity to introduce his estimates and he does have that privilege.
MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, our priorities and goals. A better system rewards all Nova Scotians in the long run. Better roads mean more economic prosperity. They mean trouble-free driving for . . .
MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, on another point of order, we are getting mixed signals here from the minister. The minister told me that he was not interested, if we weren't, in discussing his estimates today or hearing from that minister today, that this committee would not be calling his estimates and we could move to the Premier's estimates.
Now, how many stories are we going to get here today on whether or not we, as the two Opposition Parties in this House, who want to discuss the Premier's estimates here today - we did not come in here to listen to a preamble from the Minister of Transportation on his estimates. He has told us outside of the room today that we could discuss the Premier's estimates with the limited time we have left this evening, which I believe is only until 6:18 p.m., and our Party for one is not interested in listening to this minister eat up the time when he promised us out there in the hall that we would be discussing the Premier's estimates in here.
MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, it is very interesting. The honourable member seems to be trying to waste time. I would think that if he was so anxious to get on with the estimates, he would let me get on with my opening statement and then if he does not want to ask any questions, he is quite welcome to . . .
MR. MANNING MACDONALD: Well, if you are going to change the story every half an hour, Ron, you know, that is what you have been doing all day.
MR. RUSSELL: You know what I said, the honourable member for Cape Breton South, so I am going to continue on.
Well designed, engineered and maintained roads and bridges can mean much more. They can help prevent accidents, save lives, and by doing so friends and families are spared pain and anguish that cannot be quantified in terms of dollars and cents. At the same time, preventing accidents reduces the burden on our health care system. It is impossible to quantify precisely, but every accident avoided spares the cost of emergency treatment and care, hospital time, medicine, rehabilitation, lost time at work and so on. Better infrastructure also means safer, more enjoyable driving for commuters or for Nova Scotians exploring our province. It means a better visit for thousands of tourists who will not hesitate to sing the praises of this province to their friends or come back themselves and that means more tourism dollars to stimulate our economy.
This department is aware, however, that not everyone is singing the praises of our road system these days. Nowhere is the chorus louder than in our rural communities, and justifiably so. Some of our roads are in terrible shape and that is why in this year's budget we have set aside an additional $9 million for secondary road improvements. This Rural Impact Mitigation Fund obviously will not allow us to patch or pave everything we would like, but it is a good start and it is a recognition that our rural roads have been ignored for far too long. Unfortunately, secondary roads are not the only ones in need of attention. Our 100-Series Highways, the arteries that handle the vast majority of traffic, have deficiencies that must be addressed.
To fulfil most of those needs, to make that happen, we need a cost-sharing agreement with the federal government. As I said earlier, we do not have such an agreement in place. Ottawa is obliged to contribute one-half the cost of any roadwork that takes place on the parts of the national highway system. In this province that includes Highway No. 101, Highway No. 102, Highway No. 104, Highway No. 105 and Highway No. 106. Nova Scotia's pockets, as we are well aware, are not deep. On our own we cannot afford the kind of highway projects that we need. That is why we are committed, unlike previous governments in the immediate past, to securing a new cost-sharing deal with Ottawa that will commit significant funding for years to come. Nova Scotians pay about $125 million a year in federal fuel tax. That kind of money would go a long way to help our highway system. We
think it is only fair that some of the $125 million come back to this province and go directly into our roads.
As you are probably aware, our top priority of the highway work is the twinning of Highway No. 101. Traffic on this road has swelled over the last decade to the point that it must be divided. It makes sense in terms of economics and travel, but more than anything else, it must happen so we can prevent accidents and save lives. This year our pledge is to take the first steps for preliminary construction on Highway No. 101, upgrading the interchange structure at Mount Uniacke. The necessary environmental study should be completed by the end of the summer. Everything is in place now and we need Ottawa to step up to the plate. Elsewhere road projects are going ahead. Already we have put out tenders for work on Highway No. 101 and Highway No. 104 and we will be calling for more work on the other 100-Series Highways.
What other ways do we achieve our goal of a safer, more valuable transportation system? One route we are exploring is called alternate service delivery and, Mr. Chairman, this has generated some controversy in the media, in the Opposition, and indeed inside the department itself. Let me explain the program and the rationale behind it. This project is about finding value for the taxpayers' dollars. It is about finding the most efficient, cost-effective way to do work for Nova Scotians. We have to take stock of all the things we do and ask if we are indeed the ones who should be doing them. Can private industry do a better job?
The people of Nova Scotia have entrusted us with the responsibility of making choices, making changes and rebuilding our finances. Every dollar has to be accounted for. Every dollar has to be spent wisely. The old ways have to be questioned. Just because something has been done for years and years does not make it sound policy. If a program can be improved, there can be no argument against trying to do just that. We have to deliver value for our taxpayers.
We will look at things like road maintenance, fleet management, producing highway signs. At this point the details are not being worked out. Broadly speaking, we are committed to launching pilot projects in four parts of the province for road maintenance. These are pilot projects. We are exploring any sensible option, but we have not committed to anything more. Experience in other jurisdictions we have researched shows that many skilled workers will end up doing similar jobs in the private sector should that service be contracted out. No matter what happens we will treat our employees fairly, with dignity and respect and Nova Scotians will get the best possible value for their tax dollars.
The bottom line is that government can no longer afford to do everything. Instead of trying to do more with less, we have to do less with less and we have to do those things better and more cost-effectively. Already we are on that road.
We will start off by tendering this year's salt haul. Similarly, we are committed to the so-called 80/20 system for road construction for this season, but there is a large asterisk attached. We will no longer pay premium rates to the Truckers Association of Nova Scotia for that work. The Auditor General suggests that the system costs Nova Scotians $4 million a year by paying artificially inflated hauling rates. Taxpayers deserve wise choices; $4 million could go a long way to improve the rural roads. We cannot afford to lose that kind of money.
We also want to get out of businesses we should not be involved with in the first place, things like golf courses, industrial parks and malls. By transferring those things to the private sector we can get back to the business we do best, our core functions: improving our roads, bridges and buildings; finding quality office space for all public servants; and trying to make our transportation system the best in the country.
This department is about much more than roads. Transportation and Public Works is a major player in perhaps the most ambitious community-based clean-up project in the world, the clean-up of the Muggah Creek watershed, better known as the Sydney tar ponds and coke ovens. Our goal is to promote a healthy community and a prosperous future. It is a goal shared by our partners in the regional and federal governments and, most importantly, by the community. The people of the Sydney region are leading this through the Joint Action Group, better known as JAG. Through this vibrant partnership we are focusing on the right solutions, solutions that will be socially acceptable, scientifically and environmentally sound, and economically responsible.
Clearly we are embracing another innovation. Another sign of that is our recently designed website which gives the public instant access to an extraordinary amount of information. Our site not only outlines what we do, it also provides simple and easy access to our departmental reports, studies and statistics. Anyone with access to the worldwide web can see all that data with a few clicks of a mouse. Only a few years ago that sort of access would only have come after making phone calls, writing letters and making trips to the Government Book Store. We will continue to build on the success of our website, a wonderful way to remove barriers between government and the public and increase the flow of information.
The government owns furniture and equipment worth about $320 million. We have to make sure to monitor and verify the condition of those items and when necessary, we must dispose of them properly which might mean donating beds or kitchen supplies to a community group, giving away computers to schools, or auctioning an older piece of maintenance machinery. Whatever the case may be, it must be done efficiently, cost-effectively and with respect to the environment. This past year our government's disposal of Crown surplus property generated $470,000.
Mr. Chairman, that is the completion of my opening remarks. I am now available for questions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are there any questions from the Liberal caucus at this time for this minister?
MR. RUSSELL: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate appearing before your committee . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: I am not done yet, I just asked the Liberal caucus. Are there any questions from the NDP caucus for the minister at this time? Are there any further questions of any caucus committee members?
The honourable member for Dartmouth South.
MR. TIMOTHY OLIVE: Mr. Chairman, I have a number of questions I would like to put to the minister regarding issues to do with the Department of Transportation and Public Works, if I may. The minister mentioned in his opening remarks regarding the 80/20 rule and I wonder, because of the fact that truckers in rural Nova Scotia rely quite heavily, through the Truckers Association, on the 80/20 rule system to ensure some employment for themselves, can you advise the committee what the status is of those negotiations? Are you able to tell the committee where we are in trying to get a competitive price through this 80/20 process?
MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Chairman, that is a very good question. Actually the 80/20 in rural Nova Scotia is a very important question today because, as I think most members in rural areas are aware, it is a methodology of providing work for local truckers. In other words, if a contractor from the City of Halifax moves into a rural area to do a job in, for instance, West Hants, he cannot just bring all his forces up from the Cities of Halifax and Dartmouth to Hants West to carry out that work. He is required under the contract and the tendered documents to have 80 per cent of his hauling done by trucks from the local community or members of the TANS in the local community.
That is a good system, Mr. Chairman, it provides work for local truckers and it keeps money within the community. But - and I say this is a very important but - we are no longer prepared to pay the premium that we have paid in the past to maintain that system and I think that all Nova Scotians would agree that our primary job is not to subsidize the trucking industry, our job is to get pavement on the roads and that is what we intend to do. So we have negotiations under way with the Truckers Association to attempt to negotiate a market rate which will enable us to maintain the 80/20 at least for this year.
MR. OLIVE: Mr. Chairman, if I may continue, one of the issues that has been at the forefront over the last number of years is the lack of federal support in the highway transfer payments to Nova Scotia. It has certainly negatively affected what has happened in Nova Scotia. I guess as a member of caucus and as a citizen of Nova Scotia, it causes me a lot of concern. While I live in an urban area, I do frequently travel in rural Nova Scotia and quite
recently, actually, travelled up through Mabou in Cape Breton and I could not believe the condition of the highway that I was on. I thought I was back 50 years ago. I was supposed to be on a paved road and I can tell you that parts of that road were single lane and less and I was quite shocked.
I presume that a lot of those problems could be resolved if we had a federal government that would fully support our highway program. We have situations like the twinning of a highway down through your way. We have a highway on the Eastern Shore which is going to - and it does partly now - lead to a much greater industrial base along the Eastern Shore. I know the member for Eastern Shore is quite concerned as to what point in time the federal government is going to recognize the need to make that a major highway to enhance the economic development of the Eastern Shore with the offshore.
I wonder, given that bit of a background, if you can tell this committee where we are with the federal government in trying to get some federal dollars that should be coming back to Nova Scotia to help us fix our infrastructure because that is so important. The need for health and education are certainly important, but I think if we don't start doing the infrastructure work, then we are going to be in trouble. So, could you inform the committee about the current status of the federal-provincial agreement on the highway transfers?
MR. RUSSELL: Unfortunately, Mr. Chairman, we do not have a federal-provincial agreement at the present time and, unfortunately, we have not had one for some considerable time. I think that we have been short-changed in that we have not made a positive impression in Ottawa with regard to the needs of this province, particularly with regard to transportation. The feds take from the Province of Nova Scotia annually $125 million in motive fuel taxes and it would seem to be only fair that a portion of that money comes back to assist us with our road maintenance and construction.
The Province of New Brunswick, our closest neighbour, during the 10 years of the last Liberal Government in this province and, of course, they had a Liberal Government over there as well, the Liberal Government in New Brunswick went up to Ottawa and secured a $500 million federal-provincial agreement. I don't know if our people actually went to Ottawa but, anyway, they said they did and they came back empty-handed. It is our intention to pursue actively every avenue we can to put in place a new federal-provincial transportation agreement. We would like to get something in the order of about $500 million that would be cost-shared 50/50, about $250 million from the province and about $250 million federally, over say a four or five year term and that would enable us to get on with the reconstruction of the highway system in Nova Scotia. We have to do it for our economic success and we have to do it for tourism as well, of course, for Nova Scotians to get to and from work.
MR. OLIVE: Just one follow-up to that, what kind of dollars are we talking about totally, federally and provincially, that would go into the highway system if, in fact, we had that kind of an agreement put in place?
[6:00 p.m.]
MR. RUSSELL: With that kind of an agreement, at the present time we would have $125 million more than what we have now, which is approximately one-half of our total budget. Remember that our capital program this year is in the order of about $50-odd million, almost $60 million I guess but, nevertheless, that is the extent of our capital budget. The feds will not normally - and I say not normally - fund anything other than capital projects but, however, if they are funding capital projects, that does free up some of our money for maintenance, repair and what have you.
The federal Department of Transportation as well just normally funds the national highway system; the highways that I spoke of a few minutes ago, fall under the purview of the national highway system. It is possible though, Mr. Chairman, to work out a transportation agreement that will indeed go outside that envelope and fund other things and, in fact, there is a program, as you know, right now in place, the federal infrastructure program, a portion of which is for transportation and is for transportation other than the national highway system.
MR. OLIVE: Those are all my questions.
MR. CHAIRMAN: If there are no further questions from committee members, I recognize the honourable minister to make his closing remarks.
The honourable Minister of Transportation.
HON. RONALD RUSSELL: Thank you very much for having me before your committee, Mr. Chairman. I am disappointed that the Opposition did not see fit to ask any questions but, obviously, they feel that we are on the right track in Transportation, just as we are on the right track in Education and Health. So I am really happy that the Opposition is really happy with our budget.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Resolution E37 stand?
Resolution E37 is stood.
Next, we have the estimates of the honourable Premier. I believe his estimate is Resolution E20.
Resolution E20 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $7,701,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Executive Council, pursuant to the Estimate.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I just wish to advise members of the subcommittee that the portions of this resolution in regard to Acadian Affairs for $110,000 and Aboriginal Affairs for $2,100,000 were previously approved on April 27th and May 2nd. Could I ask the honourable Premier, is this the only resolution we are dealing with for your department or are there others in regard to your . . .
HON. JOHN HAMM (The Premier): Yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I wish to advise the honourable Premier that our time of expiration tonight will be at 6:18 p.m., so we have approximately eight minutes left.
The honourable Premier.
THE PREMIER: Thank you and I am quite prepared to carry on tomorrow. I have a short opening statement.
I welcome the opportunity to meet with the committee regarding the estimates of the Office of the Premier, Intergovernmental Affairs and the Office of the Executive Council.
As I have said on numerous occasions, this will be a rebuilding year during which we reposition our systems and the structures which support them. In the case of those areas which fall in my direct ambit, it means beginning some restructuring to make sure that we have the capacity to deliver on the commitments we have made to Nova Scotians.
First and foremost in that process, is the urgent need to improve our capacity to participate as strong and equal players in every aspect of intergovernmental relations. At the present time, federal transfers account for nearly 40 per cent of our total revenues - that is $1.8 billion. In addition, the Government of Canada spends approximately $6.8 billion on federal programs within the province. That represents a whopping 34 per cent of our GDP.
Unfortunately, our capacity to wring every dollar from federal programs and to work proactively with our provincial colleagues on matters of mutual concern has been seriously hampered by our inability to complete the important tasks which can only be accomplished through a strong and professional office of Intergovernmental Affairs. As a result, there have been many occasions in the past when we have not been able to receive our fair share of federal spending and other jurisdictions have benefitted from our weakness.
Effective in this year, our IGA spending will effectively double to just over $1 million. This will allow us to add strategic staff in critical areas such as health, social and fiscal policy so that we can make sure that Nova Scotia is well prepared to maximize the benefits it can receive from Ottawa and can build some efficiencies in planning and operations with our sister provinces.
In a related area, my government is committed to rebuilding the bridges to the remaining provinces which were allowed to fall into such disrepair in recent years. Since assuming office, I have participated in many regional meetings and the members of my Cabinet are individually working with their regional counterparts to identify areas where collaboration would be of help to all Parties.
In order to make certain that the vehicles which promote and facilitate this collaboration meet the needs of the new millennium, I have encouraged my fellow Premiers to embark upon an external review of the Council of Maritime Premiers. Our funding commitments will stay substantially the same while this work is being done, but we all now agree that depending upon the recommendations of the review, we may need to make some different strategic decisions about future direction that will help us work together more effectively.
Our government is committed to accountability across the system and as we indicated in our plan for the future, The Course Ahead, we will be publishing annual outcome measures and performance indicators for all aspects of our government operations.
As part of that process, we are beginning annual performance appraisals for deputy ministers and will be tying those results to the annual expectations we set for deputies in their mandate letters. Incredibly, this will mark the first time in Nova Scotia that performance expectations for senior executives will be met and then measured.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That concludes the Premier's opening remarks. You may want an opportunity to introduce, for Hansard records, who has joined you at the witness table.
THE PREMIER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, to my right, my Deputy Minister, Dr. Patricia Ripley and to my left, Mr. Dale Robbins from the Speaker's Office.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I see that no one is present from the Liberal caucus, so we will move to the NDP caucus for questions. We have approximately five minutes left in our time for tonight.
The honourable Leader of the New Democratic Party.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: It is a pleasure to see you here before the committee, Mr. Premier. I am sorry we don't have a little more time. I am going to ask you a couple of quick questions today, as we only have five minutes left. Luckily, I don't have to split it with the Liberals today, which is what the deal was. We will get back at more weighty things tomorrow, but if I may, just a couple of quick ones.
Mr. Premier, your deputy is there with you today. There was quite a fuss over the travel and accommodation arrangements deal that was made to the deputy. I am wondering whether that has been reviewed, has it been offered to anyone else in the Public Service and could you comment please?
THE PREMIER: Yes, as you know, arrangements were made for the remuneration of the deputy by a previous government and those arrangements are very much unlike arrangements that have been made at a later time with those serving in senior positions of the Public Service. As a result of consultations with the deputy, those arrangements are almost complete to allow the arrangements to more closely follow those in place now and as soon as that has been signed off, that will be made available.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: I have a couple of invoices here - one for February 10th and one for November 18th, for $2,300 each - coaching for one deputy minister. They are addressed to your deputy, but I wondered if you could please identify the deputy involved and what was the coaching all about?
THE PREMIER: I don't actually have the invoice, but perhaps if you could pass it over, it would make things easier. This involves professional instruction for deputy ministers taking on new responsibilities for which they are not necessarily fully ready for by way of experience. They, in fact, receive what is called coaching, which is really professional instruction to help them in the performance of their duties.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Could you identify the deputies involved please?
THE PREMIER: It is getting into the area of personal files, but I believe I could share that information. One invoice relates to Mr. Bernie Smith and the other to Ms. Peg McInnis.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Mr. Premier, you hired two new deputies, both of them in departments where there is some considerable concern about costs. One of them is in the Department of Health for $180,000, I believe; the other is in the Department of Education for $120,000. Would you give us some indication of whether you have set a range for new deputies and whether the $180,000 is the top range? Is there a new scale? As a new deputy comes on, are they going to get a different scale? What's the scoop on that?
THE PREMIER: Let me handle the first and then I will go on to the second. You asked a question about the new Deputy Minister of Health and the member opposite is very aware that Health is our largest expenditure by a long shot. The member opposite is also aware that we had six deputy ministers in seven years and it became very obvious to government that we had to put someone in place who could come to grips with the very serious problems that we were having in Health. We were spending more and more money and yet there was not a lot of increased value in terms of service delivery.
We felt that it would be in the best interests of the province to seek out the person that we felt would do the best job in managing the Department of Health. We identified that person after an extensive search and worked to put that person under contract and the numbers that we made public were the result of that negotiation.
MR. ROBERT CHISHOLM: Do you have a new scale for deputy ministers?
THE PREMIER: That was done by way of individual . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Time has expired for debate today. We will continue with the honourable Premier's estimates on a future day, probably tomorrow. The NDP have 55 minutes remaining in their questioning for tomorrow.
We stand adjourned.
[6:18 p.m. The subcommittee rose.]
