HANSARD
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES
Mr. Ronald Chisholm (Chairman)
Mr. Brooke Taylor
Mr. Cecil O'Donnell
Mr. Frank Corbett
Ms. Maureen MacDonald
Ms. Joan Massey
Mr. Russell MacKinnon
Mr. Leo Glavine
Ms. Diana Whalen
In Attendance:
Mrs. Darlene Henry
Legislative Committee Clerk
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HALIFAX, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 2004
STANDING COMMITTEE ON HUMAN RESOURCES
9:00 A.M.
CHAIRMAN
Mr. Ronald Chisholm
MR. CHAIRMAN: It's now 9:00 a.m. I will call this meeting of the Human Resources Committee to order. We'll go around the table and introduce ourselves for the record.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Our order of business this morning is the appointments to the ABCs. We'll start with Mr. O'Donnell.
MR. CECIL O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Environment and Labour, to the Nova Scotia Credit Union Deposit Insurance Corporation, I so move Réal Joseph Boudreau and Rod Munroe as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Health, District Health Authorities, to District 1 - South Shore, I so move Walter Freeman, Rick Gilbert, Heather MacKenzie-Carey and James Sunderland as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
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MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, to District 2 - South West Nova, I so move Donald C. Bower, Jacqueline M. Lombard and Rodger MacKinnon as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, to District 3 - Annapolis Valley, I so move John Cochrane, Q.C., James Mosher and Jim Murphy as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, to District 4 - Colchester East Hants, I so move Marie Benedict, Jim Campbell, Nora Jessome and James Shedden as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, to District 5 - Cumberland, I so move Mary Ellen Clark and Creighton McCarthy as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, to District 6 - Pictou County, I so move Anne Bigelow, Anthony Brennan, Nancy Clarke and Bonnie Linkletter as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, to District 7 - Guysborough Antigonish Strait, I so move Robert Anderson, Almon Chisholm, Loyola MacDonald and Wendy Panagopoulos as members.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. RUSSELL MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, to District 8 - Cape Breton, I so move Mildred Evans, Terry Ivey and Frank Macdonald as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, to District 9 - Capital District and to the Nova Scotia Hospital, I so move Garnet Burns, Terry Daniels, Ed Kinley, Janet Renou and Tina Tucker as members to both boards.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. O'DONNELL: Mr. Chairman, to the Nova Scotia Nurses (Licensed Practical) College, I so move Rev. Jack Briggins as a member.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, to the Queen Elizabeth II Health Sciences Centre, I so move Garnet Burns, Terry Daniels, Ed Kinley, Janet Renou and Tina Tucker as members.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, under the Department of Justice, to the Municipal Board of Police Commissioners, I so move James Paul Hood as a member.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question? Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
That concludes the appointments to the agencies, boards and commissions. We have one other item of business, some correspondence from Ms. Joan Jessome, President of the NSGEU.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, just before we move to that, if I could, I notice there are a significant number of applicants that we approved here today that when the question was raised in Guideline 11 on the document referred to as Standing Committee on Human Resources Guidelines, the answer given in a considerable number of cases is "Unknown". Perhaps we could, on a future day, have some explanation from the powers that be as to why that was. I know from a previous day, doing some research myself on a series of appointments, that in many of these cases it's very difficult to have applicants put their name in. It's just very difficult to have volunteers come forth. It would be interesting to see if that's the case right across the province, because it seems to be not just in the southwestern part of the province but right across. That may or may not speak to part of the issue we've been dealing with in terms of the advertising process.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe, Darlene, we could write a letter to Executive Council to ask that question.
MR. MACKINNON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Then we'll go to the letter from Ms. Joan Jessome of the NSGEU. Any discussion on the letter?
MR. FRANK CORBETT: Mr. Chairman, as Ms. Jessome writes, it is a timely letter and the minister did bring regulations forward. I think there is some concern by the group that Ms. Jessome represents. I think it would be a good opportunity for us to find out the exact feelings of these workers, about the regulations, because they're the ones who are most affected by it and these folks would be their representatives. So I think it would be a good idea for us to bring them forward.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion? Mr. MacKinnon.
MR. MACKINNON: One of the issues within our mandate is with regard to issues surrounding education. The issue that seems to be of growing concern for myself is the high number of children who go to school each and every day without even having breakfast. I've read Ms. Jessome's letter, and I do think there are some considerable issues there. However,
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there are different avenues that I'm not sure have been fully explored yet, particularly with regard to occupational health and safety.
The labour component within the Department of Labour advisory boards has a considerable impact on that department. I believe the member for Cape Breton Centre would agree, both at the Occupational Health and Safety Advisory Council, the Appeal Panel and a number of other boards within the Department of Environment and Labour. I know on several occasions the labour representative for the province, Mr. Clarke, has contacted our office, seeking a meeting on this and some other issues. But on several occasions, he has not been able to attend meetings that he wanted to have.
So I think maybe if we explore that avenue a little more, then we could come back to this. For me, the education with the children is a bigger issue, and that's certainly within our purview. At some point we have to deal with some of these human resources issues. As far as the regulations, I'm fairly open on it. I would be just as interested to have somebody from the minister's department come and give a briefing on the regulations or guidelines so we would be better prepared, rather than perhaps take a spoke and wheel approach.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, we're discussing this particular piece of correspondence but seeing how the member for Cape Breton West referenced the children who are allegedly going to school without their breakfast, we had some debate on that and agreed, I thought, to - did we not, Mr. Chairman? Are we trying to put an agenda together? As far as presentations go, I certainly agree with the honourable member for Cape Breton West that we did agree to deal with that issue and I wouldn't feel comfortable if - this is important, absolutely, but we're looking at prioritizing. I would tend to agree with the member, and I think I've said that I'm already on record as supporting it. I think it is the Strait board that is looking after or trying to put a program in place for 36 children, so in my view, I would certainly support that.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Victoria.
MR. TAYLOR: Victoria, was it?
MR. MACKINNON: But in the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board there are 2,000 children a day estimated out of a total of 16,000. We already have the figures before the committee in terms of the Halifax Regional School Board, which is somewhere in the vicinity of 9,000 a day who go to school each and every day without having breakfast. These are very concerning figures and the profile shows that they're increasing and it's certainly within our mandate to deal with this issue.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: That was an issue that had gone back and forth between the Community Services Committee and this committee.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: This committee actually didn't, in my recollection, unless - I know I've missed a few meetings, Mr. Chairman, maybe that was decided at a meeting I wasn't here. We sent it back to the Community Services Committee saying that breakfast was more properly dealt with in front of Community Services and if I recall correctly, the chairman of that committee, who is a member of our caucus has, in fact, indicated in one of her reports to us that that will be coming forward in front of the Standing Committee on Community Services. With all due respect, I think that would be a duplication of this issue in front of two committees.
I would like to speak to the letter from Ms. Jessome. I think that there has been some consensus among the three Parties in the Legislature with respect to the need for whistle-blower protection for members of the Public Service. The question now is whether or not what has been put in place has the effect that we all desired and some issues are being raised by the bargaining agent for the public servants, and I think it's incumbent on us to hear what those are. I like Mr. MacKinnon's suggestion that we also have a briefing from the Public Service, so that we get a clear picture of the various viewpoints on this piece of legislation. We haven't had an opportunity to have that briefing as members of the Legislature and this is the proper venue to do that in, I would think.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Further discussion.
Ms. Massey.
MS. JOAN MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make some comments actually on the letter, itself. There is some very strong wording in there when we're talking about the new regulations effectively representing a gag order to these members, when they're telling us that 31 per cent of employees said they did not feel safe in their jobs. These are serious issues that I would agree that I would like to at least have somebody come and do a presentation. We need to hear both sides of any story, certainly.
[9:15 a.m.]
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, would it be appropriate, then, to bring in somebody from the Public Service Commission, first, to brief us on what we have?
MR. MACKINNON: To brief us on the regulations. If I could speak, I don't want to belabour the issue, Mr. Chairman, but the issue before the Human Resources Committee is speaking specifically with the presentation that Ms. Madore wants to bring, in terms of the impact of children going to school each and every day without meals and the resources that are required for it. The reference that I make is within our mandate, and that is speaking in
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terms of policy, regulations and legislation on the human resources component within the Department of Education.
We're talking policy and procedures here, which is quite a different thing. We're talking about the effect of what's happening each and every day, and certainly we can make some recommendations, but I think going a little deeper into the complexities of the cause of all these issues and how they relate to other components within the educational system. Point specific, government policy or a Department of Education policy, how does it rationalize, how does it deal with these figures that are brought forth, and the real stories that are brought forth from Community Services or any other committee or from any other stakeholder? It's a totally different issue, we're getting right down to the source of the problem, and to legislation, policies, procedures, regulations, and how does the Department of Education speak to these issues.
MR. CORBETT: Mr. Chairman, I beg to differ somewhat with Mr. MacKinnon, because the issue is the correspondence from Ms. Jessome. That's what we were asked to speak on.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I raised another issue at the outset of this conversation, and I think I'm certainly entitled to that opinion and to explain the parameters of that, certainly since it's within the mandate of this committee. Now, if Mr. Corbett wants to focus single-mindedly on Ms. Jessome's letter, because it advocates a labour component, that's fine, I respect that. But I don't think he should throw any cold water on the reality and the seriousness of this situation with regard to children.
MR. CORBETT: Mr. Chairman, what I tried to explain was what's in front of us, and you asked us to deal with it, as it is in front of all of us, is the correspondence from Ms. Jessome. Whether the letter has a labour component or whatever, that's not the debate here, it's whether we're going to pursue it. We've heard talk that the idea that came from this committee was that the breakfast programs would be pursued through another committee. If we want to change our minds, fine, but one doesn't necessarily preclude the other. It seems like we're getting into a debate that we can only have one, we can't have both of them. I'm not opposed to having both, if that's the case. But I would think that the idea of what we're dealing with - with all due respect, Mr. MacKinnon - is what the chairman asked us to deal with. I'm not averse to taking the two avenues, but I think what was in front of us was the correspondence.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I guess I had some concerns over the correspondence that we've been having from Ms. Madore, too, as raised by Mr. MacKinnon. She has sent a number of letters, back and forth to both committees. It seems like we've been tossing her to the side. I'm glad to hear that the Community Services Committee is going to hear it. I was going to suggest, maybe myself, today that if they didn't, at some point in time maybe we could. But if they are going to do that, that's fine. So that's a dead issue right now.
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The issue is the letter we have from Ms. Jessome. Mr. Taylor.
MR. TAYLOR: Well, I think I'm a little bit like the honourable member for Cape Breton Centre, I can walk and chew gum at the same time, most times.
MR. MACKINNON: I'm impressed.
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, the member for Cape Breton West would be impressed. (Laughter) Mr. Chairman, quite seriously, I find myself also - it's not a question on the mandate and I would certainly welcome an opportunity to speak with the Public Service Commission, or at least the appropriate people to brief us on just what the regulations mean, if the employees are having difficulty and their leader indicates they are. But, just the same, I think in terms of getting to the bottom of the breakfast program, which seems to be bandied about, I substituted - I apologize - for an honourable member on the Community Services Committee, and my recollection is somewhat similar to the member for Halifax Needham.
However, if I could, in concert with saying yes to this, I think as a committee we owe it to ourselves to make darn sure that one of the standing committees is going to address the concern relative to the breakfast program and the fact that a number of children are going to school without breakfast. We can deal with both, I think, but the letter, yes, I'm in agreement with the request that we have before us and will support that.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, for clarification, could we have our clerk read what the mandate of this committee is?
MR. CHAIRMAN: "the Human Resources Committee is established for the purpose of
(i) considering matters normally assigned to or within the purview of the Departments and Ministers of Education and Culture and of Labour,
(ii) reviewing and approving or not approving candidates for appointment to agencies, boards or commissions where the Governor in Council has, pursuant to an enactment, the sole discretion to make the appointment or where the Governor in Council makes the appointment by choosing from a list of nominees provided to the Governor in Council pursuant to an enactment,
(iii) reviewing and approving or not approving ministerial appointees to agencies, boards and commissions where, pursuant to an enactment, Governor in Council approval is not required . . ."
That's basically the mandate, to approve ABCs, to deal with matters of the Departments and Ministers of Education, Culture and of Labour.
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MR. MACKINNON: So, with that, Mr. Chairman, I will close on the issue, because I know others want to express their views, too. I think, given the fact that Ms. Madore will be appearing before Community Services, I'm fully in support if we take it a step at a time so that we're well briefed on it. I think we should have somebody from the Human Resources Department, or whoever drafted or prepared these regulations. We should be given an opportunity to go to the department, to find out what the rationale was for it and so on, and then go to the next step with Ms. Jessome or whatever.
But with regard to the Department of Education, I think we have to speak to the bigger issue here. I think we should be mindful of that, because we'll only be dealing with the effect component, a lot of questions raised and so on. I think this particular committee has an obligation and is within its mandate to go right to the source of the issue, and that is the Department of Education. That's what I'm speaking to.
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: While I hate to differ with the honourable member, I think the bigger issue is Community Services and not Education. Education is the result, the impact of going to school without breakfast is the result of the bigger issue, which is Community Services. So you do have a difference of viewpoints on this committee on this.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We could call that a difference of opinion between two members. (Interruptions)
MS. MASSEY: Mr. Chairman, I was just wondering if staff here can find out exactly when Community Services will be before the other committee. Then, perhaps, if we wanted to, we could all sit in on that, rather than having the same people report twice on the same issue. That might just sort of move things along a little bit.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, again, I can't emphasize this strongly enough. If you take these figures - for example, the Cape Breton-Victoria Regional School Board, just because we have 2,000 students going to school every day doesn't mean that their parents don't have the resources to provide proper nutrition. There are a lot of reasons for that. I think, from a general policy point of view, everything goes back to the Department of Education, ultimately comes into that, and Community Services as well.
I think it's misleading to suggest that, for example, 9,000 families in metro have to depend on Community Services to be able to feed their children and that it's a flaw within the Department of Community Services that these children are not being fed. That seems to be the inference. That is not the case, it's far more complex. I think that's why it's within the mandate of this committee to deal with it.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: Right now, I believe the Community Services Committee is going to deal with that issue, or attempt to deal with it. If at some point in time in the future it comes back to us, we'll deal with it at that time. Right now, I think we discussed bringing in the Public Service Commission, so could I have a motion to that effect?
MR. MACKINNON: So moved.
MR. CHAIRMAN: When do we want that, I guess is the next question?
MRS. DARLENE HENRY (Legislative Committee Clerk): Do you want a separate meeting, or do you want it attached to the end of an ABC meeting?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Do we want a separate meeting? The House is sitting and everything now. (Interruptions) Attach it. Is that fine?
MRS. HENRY: So that would be October 26th.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think if you talk to the Public Service Commission, if they can make it on October 26th, I don't know what kind of work they have to do to get in here.
MR. MACKINNON: Do we have any other witnesses to come before the committee other than ABC issues?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm not sure we've completed that list that we did have. We had a number of . . .
MRS. HENRY: I don't have that with me, but I don't think we did.
MR. MACKINNON: I thought we did have an approved list.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We did have a list. Each party had submitted one, and I guess we had picked different departments to bring in, or groups, Education, the Halifax Regional School Board (Interruptions)
MR. TAYLOR: Do you have the list, Darlene?
MRS. HENRY: I can go find it.
MR. TAYLOR: No, I thought you would have it at your disposal.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe what we can do is we'll check with the Public Service Commission to see if they can come in at our next meeting, October 26th, that's fine. If not, we can get another date and we'll notify all the committee members as to what the date is going to be. How's that?
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, would it be appropriate, as well, just as a housekeeping matter, just to help better inform the members of the committee, if we were to ask the Department of Education for their thoughts with regard to this breakfast program and how it relates to their department on a provincial policy level?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Maybe we could draft a letter and send it off . . .
MR. MACKINNON: Maybe it could help to clarify this somewhat, the grey area between the two committees.
MS. DIANA WHALEN: I just wanted to clarify where we're going with the list of approved witnesses that we wanted to speak to, and that was done some time ago. In my experience on this committee, which is now more than one year, we haven't had any witnesses, we've only talked - in terms of substance - about the communications strategy for the committee and the boards and commissions. I'd really like it if we could expand.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We had the Halifax Regional School Board in, and the Department of Education was in.
MS. WHALEN: That's right, we did.
MR. CHAIRMAN: The School Boards Association was in.
MS. WHALEN: I'd like to suggest we need to do a lot more of it, and that we do pull out that list. I'm quite happy to wait until October 26th to do that, but I think we should get a list and really set ourselves some targets to start to explore some of these areas. That's my suggestion.
MR. TAYLOR: Is the list pretty well set as far as the committee is concerned? Is the agenda pretty well there?
MS. MAUREEN MACDONALD: I don't think we ever really arrived at that point. I think we submitted some ideas, but whether or not . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Each Party submitted a list and we just sort of picked from each, we agreed to different ones from each list.
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[9:30 a.m.]
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, where I was going, I would like us to consider, at some time, bringing in representatives from the Labour Standards Tribunal, because a number of times, at the constituency level, we get questions. I know in my case I'll pick the phone up and call Labour Standards, and sometimes it's quite a chore getting hold of the Labour Standards officer. They may be out in the field, or you may be bandied about a bit. More for Q&A and an educational-type presentation, than anything, I guess, from my perspective. I wonder if we could maybe just add them at the bottom of the list, whether they come up or not.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We'll bring forward the list that we have on file now for the next meeting and have a look at the other ones that are there as well. Any further business?
MR. LEO GLAVINE: I apologize for being late this morning. It was a slow trip in from the Valley. I just wanted to go on the record as saying that the breakfast program issue and that whole nutritional area in our schools is a very important issue. Perhaps being a bit new to the committee and so on, maybe I missed out not being stronger in pushing for this committee, where education is part of the mandate, that it should have been, in fact, here. Regardless, I think what's important now is that representatives from around the province will have an opportunity to present, through the Community Services Committee. In hearing from there, then it may be our committee's mandate to take a look at a policy initiative or something from this committee that would go forward afterwards.
I think the important bridge to that group is being taken. I have some idea of, even just here in metro, how serious an issue this is. In meeting with Carole Olsen, I discovered that only 39 of 130 schools in HRM actually have some kind of nutritional breakfast program. Of course they have a person dedicated to promoting and developing these programs. It is a very critical issue whose time has come. Perhaps at a later date our committee can pick up, after the initial presentation. I think we did miss a little bit, perhaps, earlier on.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I know that Ms. Madore from the Victoria school board is involved in that program and she was pretty persistent in her getting somewhere to present her case. It just seemed to me that everybody was sort of putting her off, throwing her somewhere.
MR. MACKINNON: Mr. Chairman, the issue was raised at this committee by the Halifax Regional School Board when they were here.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I know in my area there's a program in all the schools, but they're paid for and administered by the community, not the school or the school board. I guess that's one of the reason why we felt that they were best served by Community Services
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hearing that presentation. Anyway, we'll certainly deal with it. It is a problem. We've recognized it as a problem, and we'll deal with it.
Any further business? A motion for adjournment.
MR. MACKINNON: I so move.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We are adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 9:34 a.m.]
