MR. CHAIRMAN: I will call the Human Resources Committee meeting to order now. I see that all the chairs are full so we must have a full complement of committee members. On your desks you have a fax from the Minister of Housing and Municipal Affairs indicating there was a change of some kind that should have been noted, so you can put that in the proper spot in your book.
MR. BROOKE TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, we are dealing with these 152 names here this morning and I would like to make a motion, if it is in order, that with the exception of those noted in Section 5 in the Rules and Forms of Procedure . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Section 5, where is that?
MR. TAYLOR: Section 5 of the Rules and Forms of Procedure that govern the Human Resources Committee . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Section 5, yes, functions and powers.
MR. TAYLOR: Yes, I would move that this committee reject all nominees before us this morning and further that this committee meet another day to discuss the adoption of a fair and transparent process relative to the agencies, boards and commissions appointments.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you want to say something?
MS. EILEEN O'CONNELL: I was just going to second it but you don't need it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: No, you don't have seconders.
The only appointments that you want to approve today are the appointments that have been sent in by municipal units, by agencies other than the ones that are generated through Cabinet?
MR. TAYLOR: That is correct, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any discussion on that?
HON. EDWARD LORRAINE: Mr. Chairman, I am looking at these Agriculture appointments. These appointments really should have been made last year. These boards and commissions, not all but a good portion of them have expired. It is terribly hard to get qualified people to serve on these boards. You get some applications, but very seldom because the pay is very small. An awful lot of these, you will see as you go through them, on the Agriculture appointments, are staff of different boards and commissions, staff of the Department of Agriculture. These are so outdated now that the committees can't really function. I would respect the honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley's motion but I would ask to have the Agriculture appointments excluded because I think it is very important.
You can go through them. For instance, the Crop and Livestock Arbitration Board. That is a very important board. If there is a dispute between a claimant and the Crop and Livestock Insurance Board, then this committee of three meet and resolve. There is the occasional dispute that comes up, not often. These people who you will see in the Agriculture appointments are, I would say, probably 95 per cent or more new appointees. Oh, I am sorry, they are old appointees being reappointed, a lot of them going back for a good many years. In fact, most of them I don't know personally but I would like to see these Agriculture appointees go through this morning if that would meet with your people's approval.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the concern put forward by the Minister of Agriculture and Marketing and I don't dispute that there is some difficulty bringing people forward to serve on some of these agencies, boards and commissions. I think that if we were to support this motion as a committee, we could meet and discuss a fair and transparent process and if the minister has some concerns, then at that time he would certainly be given appropriate opportunity to put forward concerns he has. I think, as a whole, when you look at this book, there are some 152 names and most likely 152 of them - well, I can't say 152 but the vast majority of these names - are certainly well-connected Liberals.
I think what we have to do, as a committee, is sit down and put together a process whereby we employ and implement some accountability and credibility back into this committee. If we start cherry-picking - and with all respect, Mr. Minister, I think that is what we would be doing - these people have waited quite a while. Some of these committees, I
understand, are functioning at perhaps a lesser degree than they should be but if we convene as quickly as we can, we can address the concerns you have. I would say at the moment, Mr. Chairman, I would like to have some debate on the motion or else have it put to a vote.
MR. LORRAINE: Mr. Chairman, if the honourable member for Colchester-Musquodoboit Valley is concerned, why don't we start and do some of them right this morning? We know as much now as we will later on. If he is concerned about who is Liberal and who is Tory, I am sure as hell I can't tell you.
MR. TAYLOR: Well, I can tell you, Mr. Chairman, . . .
MR. LORRAINE: I am talking about the Agriculture committees, now.
MR. TAYLOR: Exactly.
MR. LORRAINE: I can't tell you a lot because I don't know the majority of the people. They were names recommended and as I said before, quite a few of them are our own departmental staff. So why can't we do some today? If we come back at another meeting, what is that going to resolve?
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, if I might, Agriculture is extremely important but perhaps Physicians and Surgeons of Nova Scotia, the Council of that college is very important. The Departments of Health, Housing and Municipal Affairs, all of the various departments, I am sure, would like these appointments to be made. I just think in the name of fairness, we should examine all of the departments, all of the appointments, and come in with perhaps some follow-up motions that we could adopt as a committee that would put some fairness into the system. I am not saying all of these names are necessarily not qualified. I am not saying that at all. I am not suggesting that, but I am saying there are probably some other people out there in Nova Scotia who are just as qualified.
I would like to take the minister at his word but when you look, for example, at Physicians and Surgeons of Nova Scotia, you see the names of Vince MacLean and Dawn Valardo, and I raised concerns before about Mrs. Valardo. I am not saying she is not qualified but surely to goodness there are some other names out there that might be just as qualified and you know when you check the résumés - and very few of the names have résumés attached - we see here that one individual includes, if you have difficulty discerning what political Party they perhaps represent, "As Leader of the Opposition and later Leader of the Liberal Party, built a province-wide organization that brought the party from six seats to the brink of power. Led the reorganization that formed the basis for a major party win in the following election.". (Laughter)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
MR. LORRAINE: May I respond to that? What I am asking for this morning is to deal with these that are way outdated, these Agriculture committees and when it comes to those appointments, you are not going to hurt my feelings if you reject them, not one little bit, but I am pleading on behalf of these various boards and commissions. For instance, the Crop and Livestock Insurance Commission, the reappointment of Peter Van Oostrum. Well, you all know the problem that we had last summer, that total board resigned in March, or put in their resignations. I had to work through that system and get those board members back. I don't know what their politics are but I know they were doing a heck of a good job. They had a meeting some two or three weeks ago and the chairman of the board called and he said, look, I am not reappointed, how am I going to handle this? I said step out of the chair when there is anything that you think would be a conflict, which he did. Dave Sangster, one of our own Department of Agriculture employees, is Vice-Chairman. He chaired the meetings.
It is very important, I think. We can't delay these any longer. The member is concerned about Vince MacLean, well, I could care less when we get to that. What I am saying is this is very important, these Agriculture boards and commissions, that we get them appointed as soon as possible. I am asking, I am pleading that we do this today.
MS. O'CONNELL: It is worth noting that Mr. MacLean's résumé is in there twice, as well, if anybody noticed.
A question and a comment. Do any of these Agriculture and Marketing positions fall under Section 5? Because if they did, they would go through anyway under . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: Some do, the majority of them do not.
MS. O'CONNELL: The majority do not. Okay. In response to the comments, it seems to me, when you look at this book, some of the résumés, the few that there are - because most of them are not there - are so out of date anyway, the whole book is not helpful at all. I would suggest that moving on to the next step could be done extremely expeditiously and these appointments would not have to wait very long at all if we were to move efficiently as a committee, meet, look at the process, set up a process and advertise. When this motion is off the floor, I would be prepared to move that we have a meeting very soon.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there any further discussion?
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, just for the committee's information purposes - and I know all members were present when we met last and discussed our mandate - we did support a motion that all appointments that come to the Human Resources Committee, other than appointments that fall under Section 5, all appointments would come to this Human Resources Committee for consideration. That was approved by this committee and under Section 5 we can very easily discern which appointments would be permissible, so to speak, but all others I think we have to clearly reject this morning and discuss a way to provide more
fairness and transparency into the whole nomination and appointment system. I would be prepared to meet as quickly as we can to address the concern that the Minister of Agriculture and Marketing has, but I don't see those appointments as being any more important than perhaps some of the other appointments on the board.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Speak for yourself.
MR. TAYLOR: I know Agriculture is important.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's right, it is number one.
MS. HELEN MACDONALD: Mr. Chairman, I just want to voice my support for the motion that is on the floor. If there was one thing that was told to us loudly and clearly as we talked to people in Nova Scotia, was the unfairness when government moves in the direction of appointing people to boards and commissions. I think people have given up their hope of having a voice and being involved at this level and I think we know that when we are out talking to people, there are lots and lots of qualified people in Nova Scotia who would be interested in contributing to committees and commissions but never seem to have that opportunity. They feel they don't have that opportunity because of their political affiliations.
I think it is really important that we are not only seen to be but that we are responsible to make sure that the process that we are involved in, and I certainly know from my perspective that the process I want to be involved in as a member of the Human Resources Committee, is one that is fair, open, transparent and that it treats all people equally. So I certainly would be supporting the motion.
MR. PETER DELEFES: Mr. Chairman, I would also concur with my colleague that we have to build a selection criteria around an open, transparent process and that we shouldn't cherry-pick one department now because the minister is here to speak on its behalf, namely Agriculture and Marketing, but that we can expedite the process and, hopefully, within a week to 10 days we should be able to meet to put a process in place.
MR. LORRAINE: Mr. Chairman, do I understand what these people are saying, that you can advertise, you are going to advertise for all this - which it has been in the past - and you are going to get this done in a week to 10 days and then get the application in? I suspect that a lot of these people who have originally applied for these - I am talking Agriculture boards - I suspect you will never see another application from them, because it is just like coaxing people to at least get a letter in because when you look at $50 a day for remuneration, my golly, if there was any farmer who wasn't interested, he certainly wouldn't make application for $50 a day to go to a meeting, or $100 a day.
MR. CHAIRMAN: No, it would cost him a lot more than that to be at the meeting.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, the motion is not to advertise, consolidate all the names, the motion is simply to reject the nominations before us this morning, other than those found under Terms of Reference, Section 5, and that we meet another day to discuss the adoption of a fair and transparent process. Now, if the minister has concerns that people won't apply for positions within the Department of Agriculture and Marketing, then I could perhaps find favour with the arguments that he is putting forward. But I think on the whole of things this morning, based on these 152 names, it is really incumbent upon us as committee members to recognize that, in fact, it is not business as usual in Nova Scotia as a consequence of March 24th.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you ready for the question?
MR. JAMES MUIR: Mr. Chairman, going back to the Minister of Agriculture's point. Do you know how many of these people would fall under Section 5?
MR. LORRAINE: All employees of the department.
MR. MUIR: All employees. What are we going to do to you, Ed, if it is only those nominated by the boards and commissions?
MR. LORRAINE: Some, for instance, for Crop Insurance, Dave Sangster is our appointee and our Vice-Chairman, without going through the whole list.
MR. MUIR: But he is not on there is he?
MR. CHAIRMAN: But he's not up for reappointment.
MR. LORRAINE: Well, he is not up for reappointment right now.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Both of these guys are farmers, the Crop and Livestock, the Dairy Commission, none of them work for the government. Deer Farming, they are all farmers I think. Gregg Ernst is a farmer. Leonard (Interruptions) There is one in the Dairy Commission, Chris Power, is he at Twin Cities?
MR. LORRAINE: He is the representative from Twin Cities Dairy.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, so he is one. (Interruption) There are not very many under Section 5.
MS. MORA STEVENS (Legislative Committee Clerk): If you remember, Section 5, those are the ones that going through without coming to the Human Resources Committee.
MS. O'CONNELL: That's not what the book shows.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, some of them are nominated by associations and they are still coming here.
MS. STEVENS: But we don't get to see all of the ones that are covered under Section 5, so we have to go through form by form and look. I haven't looked, up until now.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a motion with an amendment to it.
MR. TAYLOR: Did you say there was an amendment to the motion?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr. Lorraine made an amendment that we do the Agriculture ones and forget the rest.
MR. TAYLOR: Well, I would like to speak to the amendment, Mr. Chairman. For example, the Dairy Commission of Nova Scotia, is the minister telling me that there are not other Nova Scotians out there who have applied, would not apply for those positions?
MR. LORRAINE: There may very well be but if you are looking . . .
MR. TAYLOR: I am talking about the Dairy Commission of Nova Scotia.
MR. LORRAINE: All right, let me finish. If you are looking at John Akerman, who is the Chairman, who has been the legal advisor, who really wrote the rules of the Dairy Commission when Bill MacLennan's term was up - and I believe at the end of the year Bill MacLennan has acted since that time - this appointment of John Akerman, who would be a natural to go up, is effective April 1st.
MR. TAYLOR: We could pick all these different appointments apart if you really wanted to, but I was hoping we would do that at a later day. Certainly I won't be supporting an amendment that would include us approving the Department of Agriculture and Marketing appointments, quite frankly, because I have concerns with a lot of the departments. I know, in fact, people from my own constituency who have suggested, Mr. Chairman, the advertisements, for example, for membership on the Dairy Commission were hidden somewhere in among the classified ads next to unfurnished apartments, they could barely find it. So, we have to provide a transparent and fair process.
MS. HELEN MACDONALD: Could I ask, Mr. Chairman, are any of these commissions and committees under the Department of Agriculture and Marketing functioning now, or are they . . .
MR. CHAIRMAN: They are all functioning, but some of them would be functioning not quite legally. For instance, Peter Van Oostrum is still attending the meetings even though he is not on the board, and a finer man than Peter Van Oostrum you are not going to find in this province.
MS. HELEN MACDONALD: I guess my point would be that if they are functioning now, would it not be possible, many committees continue to function until a new committee is in place.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That's right, but if it came to a decision that had to be made that was legally binding on the Crop and Livestock Insurance Commission, the committee really couldn't function then. They are going through the motions, but they are not a legal entity now.
MR. LORRAINE: For instance, Mr. Chairman, the Dairy Commission, your Vice-Chair of that commission is Chris Power, so you are left now without a chair and a vice-chair for the Dairy Commission to operate.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes and that is operating a business worth $100 million a year.
MR. LORRAINE: Plus.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Plus, yes. I think you made an amendment to the motion, didn't you? That is what I was understanding you were doing.
MR. LORRAINE: I made a suggestion, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, call it an amendment and then we can vote on it.
MR. LORRAINE: Okay, make it an amendment.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, that is what I was doing, I was being helpful.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, I would like to hear the amendment read in its entirety, the motion with the amendment included, so I understand what I am voting on.
MR. LORRAINE: The amendment, simply, is excluding all others, but I want to, if possible, get these Agriculture boards' and commissions' membership appointments as of this morning. That is the amendment.
MR. DELEFES: We are going to vote on the amendment first?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.
Would all those in favour of the amendment please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
Could we have a show of hands, maybe?
Would all those in favour of the amendment please raise your right hand. Contrary minded, raise your right hand.
MS. STEVENS: It is a tie, so the Chairman gets to vote.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Gee, how did I get in this darn mess. (Laughter) I told George Moody I didn't even want to be on this committee. Cripes all mighty, could we have a recess? This is a problem, but look, I have to tell you, with respect to the pleadings of the Minister of Agriculture, I would like to go along with him and do his Agriculture ones this morning. So, I would vote with the yeses.
Would all those in favour of Brooke's motion please say Aye.
MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, I am a little confused. I want to support this, but the rest of this thing I am in favour of throwing them out. The only one I am concerned about is those for Agriculture. The minister figures that we are talking about a $100 million business, then I guess I can understand that and I can't stop that. (Interruption) Well, whatever. I am just talking about Agriculture; the rest of them, I don't even want to see some of those applications that are in there.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Would all those in favour of the motion, as amended, please say Aye.
MR. MUIR: That's the minister's motion?
MR. CHAIRMAN: No, that's Brooke's motion, to throw them all out with the exception of Agriculture.
MS. STEVENS: Except for those covered under Section 5 that have been appointed by an organization.
MR. MUIR: Okay, thank you.
MR. LORRAINE: What we just voted on is the amendment that we include all these Agriculture boards and commissions.
MR. TAYLOR: So we would have to amend the main motion, essentially, with the exception (Interruptions) Yes, I know the amendment was voted on, but wouldn't it read with the exception of those noted in Section 5 of the Rules and Forms of Procedure governing the
Human Resources Committee and the Department of Agriculture and Marketing appointments?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MR. TAYLOR: I move this committee reject all nominees before us this morning - all other, I guess now, nominations.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes. Are you all clear?
Would all those in favour of the motion please say Aye. Contrary minded, Nay.
The motion is carried.
MR. MUIR: Mr. Chairman, I went along with the Agriculture appointments this morning because, I guess, I was convinced that some of those - not all - had to be made. But I would not agree to do that again.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You have convinced me, Jamie. Now, we made a commitment to meet as expeditiously as possible. I would like to know, I am kind of curious as to the ground rules that the mover and the seconder and the rest of the committee want to put forward now for the selection process, so we have to meet quickly because there are appointments in here that should have been made six months ago and I don't want to drag them out any longer. There are boards that need membership and it is not fair for the boards not to have the membership, so it is incumbent upon us to begin meeting immediately to solve the problem and draw up some kind of rules that satisfy the committee.
MS. O'CONNELL: Can you suggest a meeting day and time?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, I am looking at the calendar and today is June 23rd. How soon can we meet, Monday, June 29th? Or could we meet Friday? The House will be in session. Thursday morning?
MS. STEVENS: I know Thursday morning is Cabinet, so there is a conflict with the ministers. Friday is usually a good day, but it would probably be after the House would sit, I would assume, if you didn't actually want to be here when the House was sitting, to physically be over in this room.
MR. CHAIRMAN: What time is the House sitting Friday, 9:00 a.m. or 9:30 a.m.?
MR. LORRAINE: It will be 9:00 a.m. or 9:30 a.m., I think.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, could we meet as a committee at 8:00 a.m. on Friday morning?
MR. LORRAINE: Mr. Chairman, you could, but I can't be here because I am meeting with that group that you asked me about in the House the other morning on Friday morning.
MR. CHAIRMAN: So, it is my fault. (Laughter)
MR. LORRAINE: No, but you did ask me about it.
MR. CHAIRMAN: I know and I called them last night on the phone again and they are still anxious to get . . .
MS. HELEN MACDONALD: What time does Cabinet meet on Thursday?
MS. STEVENS: From 8:30 a.m. until 12:00 p.m. or 12:30 p.m.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, Thursday is a bad day, Friday isn't great.
MR. MUIR: Monday?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Monday morning. (Interruptions) Do you want to meet Monday morning at 9:00 a.m., would that be all right? You have to come from Cape Breton, don't you? You have to come all the way from Shelburne.
HON. CLIFFORD HUSKILSON: Mr. Chairman, Monday mornings we usually try to spend in our constituency offices.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I know, so do I. They love you down there, they can live without you for one Monday morning.
MR. LORRAINE: Mr. Chairman, again, I can't be here on Monday morning because of other commitments, but that doesn't matter. I will delegate somebody to come in my place if that is what you decide on.
MR. CHAIRMAN: It is not easy for any politician to be here on a Monday morning, but I truly believe that the course we have set means that we had better mean business and we had better be sincere and we have to have these appointments made. If you want to do that, then we can't put it off. So, Monday morning at 9:00 a.m.
MR. TAYLOR: Mr. Chairman, any changes that we make and adopt as a committee, do they have to be, in turn, sanctioned by the Committee on Assembly Matters?
MS. STEVENS: Yes.
MR. CHAIRMAN: So we are looking at a procedure that we better work quickly to find out whether it is going to work or not. We don't like the way things are going, but we are sure not going to like having no appointments.
[9:30 a.m.]
MR. MUIR: That is 9:00 a.m. Monday morning?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.
MR. MUIR: I guess one of the things, Mr. Chairman, that it seemed to me, as a new member on this committee, when I got that book, the only names in that book are the names on that sheet, so I can understand why there were unkind comments made about how this committee functioned in the past. Why meet if that is what is going to come to you?
MR. CHAIRMAN: On Monday morning, I suspect we will be having discussions. Is this a meeting of the committee or is it a meeting that is open to the media?
MR. MUIR: It makes no difference to me, Mr. Chairman.
MR. TAYLOR: Fair and transparent.
MR. CHAIRMAN: We will meet here again Monday morning at 9:00 a.m.
MS. STEVENS: If I may ask, do you want to go through the names in Agriculture one by one or do you just want to pass a mass motion for the Agriculture?
MR. CHAIRMAN: We did that, we already passed the motion.
The meeting is adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 9:32 a.m.]
