HANSARD
NOVA SCOTIA HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE
ON
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
Wednesday, February 19, 2025
COMMITTEE ROOM
Committee Business
Printed and Published by Nova Scotia Hansard Reporting Services
Public Accounts Committee
Susan Leblanc (Chair)
Marco MacLeod (Vice Chair)
Hon. Brian Wong
Tom Taggart
Tim Outhit
Dianne Timmins
Lisa Lachance
Hon. Iain Rankin
Hon. Derek Mombourquette
[Lisa Lachance was replaced by Krista Gallagher.]
In Attendance:
Kim Langille
Committee Clerk
Gordon Hebb
Chief Legislative Counsel
Kim Adair
Auditor General
Morgan McWade
Assistant Auditor General
Kirk Robinson
Audit Principal
Janet White
Audit Principal
HALIFAX, WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 2025
STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS
10:25 A.M.
CHAIR
Susan Leblanc
VICE CHAIR
Marco MacLeod
THE CHAIR: Order, please. I'm going to call to the meeting to order. Because we are now in a public meeting, I will begin all my opening statements again.
This is the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. My name is Susan Leblanc. I am the Chair and the MLA for Dartmouth North. My pronouns are she/her.
Now I would like to ask the committee members to introduce themselves, starting with the member on my left - your name, your constituency, and your pronouns, please.
[The committee members introduced themselves.]
THE CHAIR: We also do have folks from the Auditor General's Office here, so I would like them to introduce themselves, beginning with Mr. McWade, please.
[The witnesses introduced themselves.]
THE CHAIR: We have some committee business to attend to. The first thing is the correspondence from MLA MacLeod, seeking clarification on the procedure for bringing a meeting in and out of camera. We also have the Chair - that's me - the response that was sent to MLA MacLeod.
MLA MacLeod has asked that the matter be placed on the agenda for discussion. Essentially the question is: What is the procedure when we are in an in camera meeting to come out of in camera? We've just had that experience. While we were looking into it, we also consulting with Legislative TV, and we have some information from Legislative Television on the procedure. Here it is. Sorry, I was making notes on it.
I think the best thing to do is bring everyone up to date and outline all the letters. Last night, I, as the Chair, received a letter from MLA MacLeod seeking clarification on the procedures for bringing a meeting in and out of camera. “What is the formal procedure for transitioning a meeting from public to in camera and vice versa? Are there specific motions or votes required?”
My response was: “If, during a public meeting, the committee wishes to go in camera a motion would need to be made to do so and passed by a majority of members.” So it's a simple majority. “The same would apply if the meeting was in camera and members wished to go public. The motion does not need to be unanimous. A recess would be required to allow LTV to change from public to in camera and vice versa.”
Now I just want to read the information we've received from LTV:
• LTV will need to be made aware of when meetings are public or not.
• 24 hours advance notice will be required to staff video appropriately.
• If a meeting is designated as in camera LTV is to treat it as an entire meeting with no video or streaming or recording.
• If the required notice is not given, the committee will need to wait until staff is available, especially during house and budget when staff are likely coming in from home.
• In off session it means likely a video op will be minutes away at the office.
• Preparation is needed. Every meeting that's public needs a YouTube stream created, needs to be linked on the legislature website, etc.
There's a whole bunch of technical stuff that needs to be done. That's the situation. I would like to open the floor for discussion, if there's any discussion on that question and the situation that would be required to switch from in camera to out of camera.
Any discussion? It's clear? Excellent.
The next item on the agenda is the Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada declining attendance for the meeting coming up. A response has been received from DFO indicating that attendance before the committee is being declined, “because we are not able to appear on this study.” Is there any discussion on this?
MLA MacLeod.
MARCO MACLEOD: I'm all good but I'm interested in introducing a motion.
THE CHAIR: So nothing on Fisheries and Oceans Canada. I will call on MLA MacLeod for new business, then.
MARCO MACLEOD: Here's the motion:
Whereas the Nova Scotia Public Accounts Committee meets on a regular basis; and
Whereas a standard meeting schedule allows for greater clarity for Nova Scotians;
Therefore I move that the Public Accounts Committee meet weekly from 9:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. Wednesdays during regular government operations with the exception of an eight-week break during the months of July and August, as well as a scheduled furlough during sessions of the House of Assembly.
THE CHAIR: There is a motion on the table. Is there any discussion?
MLA Rankin.
HON. IAIN RANKIN: I won't be supporting this motion. I think it's just a continuation of limiting accountability, limiting the voices of opposition. Effectively we do have a schedule that's known to the public that this committee meets every Wednesday whether the House sits or not. It doesn't typically sit in the Summer, but we are nationally known as a committee that has that best practice of meeting frequently.
It has been brought up at many of the conferences that the Auditor General and the Chair and Vice Chair typically participate in, and we deliver presentations of why that's of value to look at the multitude of reports coming out of the Office of the Auditor General of Nova Scotia, as well as other topics of concern for Nova Scotians.
I find it distasteful that the day after the government tables raises for themselves that they're now going to reduce the amount of work that they're going to do at committee. I'll be voting against it.
THE CHAIR: MLA Mombourquette.
HON. DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I won't say too much, other than the fact that the government just doesn't want the Public Accounts Committee to meet so they won't have to answer questions in the House during Question Period. That's ultimately what it is.
For me, we're willing to meet every week throughout the year. It's been the process for years. Ultimately this is because topics that are important to Nova Scotians that are reported on by this committee in a public forum help to build the narrative and the story around what's happening in the Legislature.
This is purely a political move to ensure that this is a committee that's just not going to meet so the government doesn't have to answer questions when the House is in session. It makes no sense. We're meeting every week anyway.
As my colleague said, the committee tends to not meet in the Summer. Ultimately why would we need to change that when the House is sitting? Obviously, it's because of the nature of this committee, the reports that come out of this committee that are specific in nature, whether it's hearing from the Auditor General on finances or other programs around health, other programs around education.
As we know, multiple reports come here and it's just one way to make sure the government doesn't have to answer questions as those reports come out during the sitting, so we won't be supporting the motion.
THE CHAIR: Any other discussion on the motion?
MLA MacLeod.
MARCO MACLEOD: Thanks for the input. Also, thank you to the clerk for the jurisdictional scan that was completed. It did show that we are top in the country when it continues to meet. We will continue meeting more than all our neighbours.
We look forward to continuing meeting every week. While the House is sitting there is ample time to pose questions to ministers. It's also budget season so during Estimates, ministers will be available.
THE CHAIR: Before we vote on this motion, I just want to remind everyone that we do have a meeting with the Department of Finance and Treasury Board scheduled for next week. I would like to ask for the support of the committee to retain that meeting next week with the Department of Finance and Treasury Board, since it's already scheduled and blocked out in everyone's calendar. I'm wondering what folks think of that.
MLA MacLeod.
MARCO MACLEOD: I believe we discussed that, and we determined who the witnesses were for that, but we did not determine the date for that meeting, unless I'm remembering incorrectly. I don't remember determining a date.
THE CHAIR: Ms. Langille, can you clarify for us on that?
KIM LANGILLE: The committee doesn't typically state “we want X witness on X date.” Typically, what happens regarding Auditor General reports is that they're tabled on a Tuesday. The committee typically meets with the Auditor General the following day - on the Wednesday, in camera - to discuss the report. Then the witness would be called the following week if they're available. It just so happened that because of the orientation session that was happening last week, the Department of Finance and Treasury Board got pushed to a week later. That's why they're scheduled. Once the committee approves witnesses, I go ahead and schedule so that we can ensure that meetings are happening.
THE CHAIR: Can you clarify for us that they are scheduled?
KIM LANGILLE: They are scheduled to come, yes.
THE CHAIR: MLA Mombourquette.
HON. DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Just procedurally, I'm happy to put forward a motion on that. Can I do that before we have to vote on this?
THE CHAIR: You could make an amendment.
DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Okay, I can make an amendment.
THE CHAIR: Go ahead.
DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I would amend the motion to say that before this decision is made, that the Public Accounts Committee meet with the Department of Finance and Treasury Board next week as scheduled before a decision is made on this motion.
THE CHAIR: Is there any discussion on the amendment?
DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Just very quickly, my colleague talked about the importance of the budget and talked about the importance of being able to ask questions during Estimates to ministers. We have the Department of Finance and Treasury Board coming in, so I think this is an important piece of the budget process as we all debate it and discuss in the Legislature. I hope that the committee will recognize the fact that this is a scheduled meeting and that we should fulfill it.
THE CHAIR: MLA Mombourquette, I just want to clarify your motion. I know that we have it in Hansard, but the way you worded it suggested you meant something else. The way I heard you say it was that you wanted to amend the motion that we defer this decision until after next week's meeting, rather than voting on this decision Given the outcome of the decision that is inevitable, we still schedule the Department of Finance and Treasury Board - that we retain that meeting. I'm going to ask you to clarify the meaning of your motion.
DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: The meaning of my motion was to not vote on the original motion of changing the schedule until after we meet with the Department of Finance and Treasury Board next week. I don't think we should make a decision on that. We have a committee that is scheduled to be here. We have a scheduled meeting, so I don't think we should vote on anything until after that meeting takes place.
THE CHAIR: Thanks for the clarification. My understanding is that that is a deferral on this motion, and I don't believe that that is in order.
GORDON HEBB: It's not debatable.
THE CHAIR: It's not debatable, so no discussion, but we will vote on this motion for a deferral.
All those in favour? Contrary minded? Thank you.
The motion is defeated.
Now we will go back to the original motion. If there is no further discussion, we will vote on the motion. All those in favour?
MLA Timmins.
DIANNE TIMMINS: Regarding the meetings scheduled: In the past, the previous government and some of the members in the committee basically voted to reduce Public Accounts Committee meetings. I just wanted to put that comment forward.
THE CHAIR: I don't see any further discussion. All those in favour? Contrary minded? Thank you.
The motion is carried.
MLA Rankin.
HON. IAIN RANKIN: I'd like to move the following:
Whereas the Office of the Auditor General has identified a lack of accountability and transparency in the Nova Scotia government's over-budget spending process, I move the committee endorse the Office of the Auditor General's recommendation to amend the Finance Act to allow the Legislature to review, vote on, and approve additional government spending, giving more oversight to the Legislature, which every other province in this country has. It's normal practice for this committee to endorse Auditor General recommendations, so I'd like to put that forward, and I look forward to support from fellow committee members.
THE CHAIR: Is there any discussion on that motion? Seeing none, I will call for the vote. All those in favour? Contrary minded? Thank you.
The motion is defeated.
Is there any other business for today? I was going to say that our next meeting is next week, February 26, 2025. That is no longer the case, so I guess I will ask the clerk to schedule the Department of Finance and Treasury Board at the earliest date possible following the sitting of the Legislature. If there's nothing else, then I will adjourn the meeting. The meeting is adjourned.
[The committee adjourned at 10:42 a.m.]
