HALIFAX, TUESDAY, MARCH 4, 2025

 

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

 

3:27 P.M.

 

CHAIR

John White

 

 

THE CHAIR: Order, please. The Committee of the Whole House on Supply will now come to order.

 

It is now 3:27 p.m. The committee must rise and report to the House before the hour of adjournment, which today is at 10:00 p.m.

 

The honourable Deputy Government House Leader.

 

MELISSA SHEEHY-RICHARD: Chair, would you please call the Estimates for the Minister of Growth and Development, Resolution E12.

 

Resolution E12 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $400,214,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Growth and Development, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Timberlea-Prospect.

 

HON. IAIN RANKIN: I appreciate everyone's time today. I have a few questions with the remaining time for my colleague.

 

I'll start with a short, local one for a former colleague in the Digby area. Back in our government in 2019, Digby Pines was sold. One of the conditions of that sale was that the purchaser would spend at least $8.4 million on capital upgrades to the site by October 31, 2024.

 

I understand this would fall, as an economic development project, under the Department of Growth and Development. I'd like to ask the minister if he knows if those upgrades have been made.

 

THE CHAIR: The honourable Minister of Growth and Development.

 

HON. COLTON LEBLANC: It is my understanding that the project would fall within the purview of Build Nova Scotia.

 

IAIN RANKIN: Okay. I'll try with Public Works.

 

I want to talk a bit about the Ivany report back in 2014. This was a report that was commissioned with lots of different goals, and we haven't heard much or anything about that report - any progress on that report - over the last number of years, despite the fact that all parties at the time bought into it.

 

I can remember when I was on the government side, and the governing party was on this side, that they brought forward legislation around the Ivany report. They bought right into it. The Leader at the time was part of the coalition with all the other party Leaders who would work collectively on what everyone agreed needed to happen because the report was termed as now-or-never. Really, it was a call to action. One of the first things it talked about was a new politics around taking the partisan stuff away and working together.

 

[3:30 p.m.]

 

There are lots of interesting things that it said in there: how politics as usual would hold back progress and how we need to work together - the kind of words that are sometimes used today in terms of an attitude shift of how to press forward. A lot of it was around natural resources and growing our economy, growing our exports, and growing all these things.

 

The first time I heard a minister refer to the Ivany report was last night. The Minister of Energy talked about how in 2014 there was that call to action.

 

I'd like to ask the Minister: With the 19 goals that were already in place 10 years ago to grow our economy, with some of those goals already being achieved and some of them remaining in progress, is the government still committed to the goals of the Ivany report?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: How the world has changed since 2014. The Ivany report highlighted a number of findings and initiatives for government to pursue, one of which was population growth. We've seen our provincial population grow significantly in the last number of years. That has come with some challenges but also opportunities.

 

As a government, I'd say we continue to build on the Ivany report. We find ourselves today, more than 10 years after that report, in a much different world after a global pandemic and now faced with a geopolitical crisis in light of tariffs being imposed on our country. As I've noted, we're building upon what the Ivany report has highlighted but also looking at what we've included as our business plan for the direction of our government.

 

As I discussed last night in Estimates, part of growing our economy and part of diversifying our economy in light of tariffs - I'd say it would be an important conversation to have regardless of whether we were facing these tariffs and dealing with this current situation that we are today. Now, more than ever, we have to become more self-reliant. We've had lots of debate in the last number of days, here in the Legislature, on our traditional industries.

 

As a government, we need to look at how we continue to grow and support those traditional industries, ensuring we have new markets, whether it be in Europe, in Asia, or across the country, frankly. I believe nearly half of exports are interprovincial.

 

As a government, under the leadership of our Premier, we want to do better, and we want to do more. We have an important piece of legislation on the floor of this Legislature to do just that.

 

There have been some successes, even before this piece of legislation was tabled. You need to look at direct sales to consumers of certain alcohol in certain jurisdictions across the country and simple things like harmonizing our first aid kits, which seems pretty simple but did not exist. You look at the labour mobility in our province. We worked with our Atlantic counterparts to enact the Atlantic Registry of physicians.

 

When the Premier and I met with members of our - the Minister of Finance was there, as well. When we met with members of our Chambers of Commerce, examples that the Premier gave on labour mobility: Good enough to be a roofer in Newfoundland and Labrador; good enough to be a roofer in Nova Scotia.

 

It's common sense that we need to seize this potential to help fill the workforce and help grow our economy. I know the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board has spoken at great length about our capital plan in Budget 2025-26, which will help, in one way, isolate us perhaps from some of the impacts of the tariffs.

 

I remind the House that we don't have a full picture. I don't think anybody in this Chamber, in the province, or in the country has a full picture of what the entirety of the situation will look like. It's fluid. I know the reality we are facing with tariffs today is creating lots of stress and angst for Nova Scotians, for businesses, and for Canadians from coast to coast. We will respond and continue to respond with a proportional response.

 

Some of the highlights that align with my department, when we have the conversation about growing the economy, is a lot of discussion about critical minerals. The building blocks do help our province and our nation to continue to fight against climate change.

 

We are resource rich. We are rich with people as well. I believe they're important conversations to have, whether it's in this Chamber or across the province, about how we can do things in a safe and sustainable way to lead to more self-sufficiency.

 

There are regions around the world where they extract these minerals in perhaps a not so safe and environmentally friendly way, where the labour might not be to the same labour codes we have here in our province or in our country.

 

I'm a believer that it is the mindset of our government that we can have these conversations that look at how we can tap into these critical minerals in a safe and sustainable way to grow the economy from one end of the province to the other, growing and developing our rural regions and creating good-paying jobs. At the same time, we can continue to support our traditional industries.

 

It was the Minister of Agriculture today in Question Period who noted that we can do two things at once. Nova Scotians are capable of doing many things, and doing two things at once is the least we can do. At least we can move forward with that.

 

When we talk about diversifying our trade with dependable partners, unfortunately we no longer have a dependable partner with the United States. It's unfortunate that we find ourselves in this situation, after a long-standing relationship - an ally with the United States - that we are in this position today.

 

[3:45 p.m.]

 

This is not anything against the American people. This is with the administration, and we will, as a government, continue to be a part of Team Canada. The member himself referenced today in Question Period about being strong and united. I don't know the exact wording, but there was that reference to being united.

 

Now more than ever, it is incumbent upon all members of this House, regardless of political stripe and affiliation, to stand strong and united, and that spreads right across our province.

 

As part of this Team Nova Scotia initiative, there have been references to calls to action. One of the biggest calls to action right now is looking for local and supporting local. The power of buying local is huge right now. We've invested again this year in Nova Scotia Loyal to support the local growers, the harvesters, the manufacturers, and the producers who contribute so much to our province and employ Nova Scotians. I remind and encourage all members to look for Loyal and support Loyal, as well.

 

There's a question of what government is doing right now in light of tariffs. We have over $130 million worth of programs to support businesses directly. Those existed prior to the threat of tariffs, and we will continue to invest in them. Whether it be in the Export Development Program, the Innovation Rebate Program, or countless others, we need to maximize these opportunities.

 

I ended last night in Estimates talking about the Export Development Program, where it's allowed Tony's Meats to export donair meat across the country, throughout the United States, and even in the Middle East. Another local success story is Eden Valley Poultry in the Annapolis Valley. With some financial assistance from Invest Nova Scotia, more than $2 million in capital investments in production, operational capacities, and new tech will allow them to produce more value-added products. Now they are in not only the Maritimes but also Quebec and Ontario.

 

Part of this discussion of leveraging and building on the Ivany report is clearing the path for new business and growth. Part of this discussion we're having today in this House, and since we've tabled legislation to put our natural resources, such as critical minerals and mining - also fisheries and aquaculture and forestry and agriculture - at the forefront of economic development priorities.

 

We, through the Department of Growth and Development and with folks at Invest Nova Scotia, are a convener. We work with the lead departments on the growth of those sectors. There is a role for us, but there are lots of subject matter experts in those respective departments with whom we are working in lockstep to ensure we unlock the full potential of these sectors. If it's maximizing our export development and investment attraction opportunities, now more than ever is the time to capitalize on these sectors that have been the backbone of our economy. We can lead to opening new doors and creating a generational success story for future Nova Scotians.

 

There's lots of talk about transitioning to green energy. We have an abundance of natural resources, as I've noted, whether it be - including wind. Many experts themselves agree with the Province's capacity to deliver green energy through our offshore and onshore wind resources. We can also lean in and leverage the proximity we have to the European markets, which are themselves seeking clean fuel options. We have - well, maybe not this Winter, but we have - not often do we have ice in our ports. We have deep, ice-free ports. That gives us that competitive edge we need to become a global powerhouse in that sector to produce green energy.

 

There's lots of discussion about infrastructure. I'll note that our government's capital plan for Budget 2025-26 includes $2.35 billion in health care facilities, roads, schools, housing priorities, and other strategic priorities across our province. These are important projects. These are important investments in Nova Scotians themselves that will not only help us modernize the delivery of health care and help provide good quality homes for Nova Scotians but also create good-paying jobs in many parts of this province.

 

Part of our response to the tariffs has been changing some of our procurement policies. That was part of our government's initial response when tariffs were initially on, then off, and on and off again, but here we are. We've also, to support our own Nova Scotian businesses, created a new policy, which we implemented last year when I was Minister of Service Nova Scotia, to give an advantage to Nova Scotian businesses by giving them a 10 per cent advantage for government procurements - public entity procurements - under free trade thresholds: below $33,000 for goods and below $133,000 for services. These, albeit smaller, procurements have big impacts for the companies that have that advantage. We, as a government, are putting our money where our mouth is, and we will continue to do such initiatives to support our local economy and businesses.

 

Finally, fostering workforce development employment: We have had vacancies in many sectors. There has been a big lift, a big push, across government working with departments, like the Department of Labour, Skills and Immigration and the Department of Advanced Education, and working with our post-secondary institutions to try to bridge those gaps, whether it be in health care or in the skilled trades.

 

We've made a lot of progress, albeit there are still some gaps left. I take from my past profession that the gap is narrowing on the number of paramedic vacancies. That's because of the leadership of the Minister of Health and Wellness and of the Department of Health and Wellness to tackle this head-on. Kudos to them.

 

We also work with our Regional Enterprise Networks and our incubators - our innovation ecosystem business incubators and accelerators - who are themselves also at grassroots levels working with businesses. We'll continue to look at ways to support them so that, as organizations that work every day with companies and startups across Nova Scotia, we can ensure these businesses can access the capital and investment they require for their success.

 

We have a strong team at Invest Nova Scotia that does a breadth of initiatives and support programs. Over $130 million in programs and financing that are available there. We will continue to ensure that Nova Scotians and Nova Scotia businesses are aware they can reach out to Invest Nova Scotia for assistance and help navigating these uncharted waters.

 

Sometimes dealing with government is complex, but we want to make it easier, so as was noted by some colleagues in QP today, we value feedback. We want feedback. We will be depending on feedback from businesses in the next days, weeks - hopefully it's just weeks - for the foreseeable future and beyond, in light of these tariffs, of what they are experiencing and the impact on their businesses so government can respond accordingly when we have, eventually, a clearer picture of the economic reality here in the province.

 

I do want to thank the staff, both within my department and at Invest, including folks who are part of the investment attraction team that works with high potential growth sectors to attract.

 

Also, it's one thing to attract business here, but we also have to focus on retaining these companies in Nova Scotia. There's a big push to do just that, in light of everything that's going on. These efforts combined can attract not only good-paying jobs but high-paying jobs that will continue to grow our economy and support Nova Scotia for today and the next generation.

 

IAIN RANKIN: I guess that's what the Ivany report and others that have talked about the change of culture and partisanship we need in the province speak to. The minister took 20 minutes to basically say “no” when he was asked if the Ivany report is still something the government has endorsed. He speaks to the reasons why things have changed in 10 years, and of course they have changed in 10 years.

 

The author has anticipated the change, and that's why targets were set for 10 years, which would have taken us to 2024. That's why there's a dashboard online, through the ONE Nova Scotia Coalition, where we sometimes had edits to some goals and sometimes no edits since the government has taken over.

 

Things remain the same in terms of the foundations of our economy, especially those traditional industries that the minister and the government reports to support. Exports are still good, aren't they? Tourism is still good, I would submit; it's still important. Population growth is still important, the minister mentions. Venture capital is still important for our province. Start-ups are still important for our province.

 

The number of goals that are there, I would submit, are still relevant to today's discussion. We haven't heard anything about economic growth from this government until this term they're in started, when there could have been more work to attract businesses.

 

We need all types of businesses here, not just those that have relationships with traditional sectors. We need to draw in venture capital and start our start-ups. The first thing this government did in the area of economic development was turf the Economic Growth Council that had a goal to make Nova Scotia the start-up capital of the world.

 

There are a number of goals where Nova Scotia was progressing, and my fear here is that, if we have a Minister of Economic Growth who is not committed to revitalizing the goals that all parties - civil society, social enterprises, and municipalities - were all working on, we're simply looking at one sector of our economy. Worse than that, we're not even listening to voices that have expertise in that sector, and we're not even asking for collaboration.

 

There are a number of goals - I mentioned the start-up area - where we're going backwards; 2014 was the baseline, where we had 310 start-ups, and we're now down to 230 start-ups in our province, which is less than the stated goal at the time of 465. Maybe the Minister can share more data. Start-ups are an important part of our economy.

 

Labour force participation is important, where we have a labour force rate that is at least lower than the Canadian rate. We've lagged behind the rest of Canada, particularly since 2021. We're now 2.1 per cent below the national average. We had a goal to improve the labour participation rate of First Nations and African-Nova Scotians, up to the provincial average. We lag behind that, as well: 11 per cent lower than the average. We should be leveraging the skills of all Nova Scotians to grow our economy.

 

Goal 13 was about looking at the venture capital issue. The three-year annual average for per capita venture capital investment should be equal or better than the Canadian average. Unfortunately, as of the last data released in 2021 - there's not much by the way of updates to the website - our province lags behind the average by a shocking 58.3 per cent to attract venture capital.

 

I wonder if any of this concerns the Minister. Is he concerned that our venture capital is so low? Is he concerned that our labour participation is so low, especially when it comes to marginalized populations? Is he concerned that we have the lowest productivity in the country? Is he concerned that our GDP growth is now down to 1.8 per cent? Is he concerned that we're going in the opposite direction to what all experts, including that party, agreed, that we should be descending our debt to GDP toward the goal in the report of 30 per cent?

 

In their own budget documents before the House, they're forecasting going in the other direction, to 40 per cent debt to GDP. That's not even considering a dime of what is going to need to be spent with the tariff issue and the economic shock, which could create significant pressure on our finances. Is he concerned about the financial health of our municipalities, which was important in the report, and all the other metrics by which we look at our situation in terms of our economic strength?

 

Is the Minister prepared to update the ONE Nova Scotia website? Because he feels that the report happened so long ago that it's not as relevant today, will there be any kind of full-scale economic review that looks at all these things? What is the plan? Is there any underlying plan for economic growth beyond one letter that was put on the front of the Chronicle Herald?

 

Is the Department of Growth and Development interested - the name changed twice in two mandates. It's about 30 times it's changed since the history of the department started. Is the department interested in tracking any of these metrics that are relevant to growing our economy and are the base of how we provide public services in the province for health care and education? Is it still important that we diversity our exports, or is it just a talking point? Is it still important that we get back on track with our tourism sector, or are we just going to make one-off announcements at Stanfield Airport, which is still not back to the traffic they were at in 2019?

 

Is it important that we at least get back to how many start-ups we had when this government took over or even try to get to the previous goals set in 2014? Aren't start-ups still important to this province? What about the sectors that are most likely to be a start-up, like environmental science and a lot of different industries that are considered more of the knowledge-based economy and supporting incubations, whether that would have been Volta here or places like IGNITE in rural areas? Do we not still want to achieve population growth and have targets in mind? Do we not want venture capital? What are our targets beyond the United Stated for our exports? What is the plan to look at our different trading partners across the world? Do we have a plan for our participation rate - our labour participation rate?

 

What about Nova Scotia Loyal? That seemed to be the only economic plan that was announced in their first mandate and seemed to have changed a little bit. Now they're going to go beyond just helping Sobeys and NSLC and promote our local domestic market to purchase local products. Are we just going to look at Nova Scotia Loyal convincing people to buy local and villainize Nova Scotians who may have issues or questions around the government's plan to start looking at natural resources in a different way?

 

That department is tasked with improving economic growth. They should have a handle on exactly how many start-ups we have. They should have a handle on exactly how much investment is coming in, what we're doing to work on productivity, and what we're doing to work on our financial capacity within our province.

 

Our two neighbours, New Brunswick and P.E.I., did work to bring down their debt to GDP toward 30 per cent. This government chose to spend it. Some of that money will go in the right areas. There's no question. It has to, but they chose to run structural deficits rather than make us a more competitive place for growth. They have outspent our economic growth. In the last three years, we've grown by about 7.6 per cent, and the increase in government expenses has been well over 30 per cent.

 

The Minister of Growth and Development should be concerned about that. He should be concerned that his government is bigger than our ability to keep up with our services in the long term, yet he does not care about a report that pointed out our financial challenges a decade ago. Nova Scotia Loyal is supposed to be the saviour of everything, along with drilling for fracking - fracturing - and shale and uranium mining.

 

[4:00 p.m.]

 

There is no comprehensive plan in this government. There is no fiscal discipline with this government. They continue to talk about how they're going to transform our economy, and there's billions and billions in revenue that we're going to see flowing in, yet none of it's presented in the budget. None of it can be explained by either the Minister of Natural Resources when it comes to uranium or the Minister of Energy in Estimates when it comes to fracking, and it can't be explained in terms of what actually changes in our regulations or how the process works to bring new companies to the province.

 

We have one report from 2014 that laid out a roadmap of how parties can work together. A lot of those goals were actually achieved. The export ones - since those are so relevant to our discussion today - were achieved early and need a new target. Since this government came in, they haven't actually looked at that target.

 

The percentage of exports that have gone to the U.S. has grown. There's less focus on China; there's less focus on Asia. Most of the Asian markets, you can see from last year to this year, have decreased. These are important metrics that the minister should have his eye on, and $200 million is supposed to help offset any impact from tariffs. When we are so reliant and more reliant on U.S. markets than we ever have been before, where more our tires and seafood are exported to a market that has increased tariffs, this government should be doing everything it can to work with all Nova Scotians with an economic plan that includes all sectors, not just resource-based sectors.

 

Resource-based sectors are the foundation of our economy, and there's good rhetoric around that from the government, but their last few budgets haven't grown the budget lines for agriculture, the budget lines for fisheries. Fisheries budget line has actually gone down in this budget.

 

I'd like to ask the minister: What is the plan for all sectors - not just talking points and specific announcements - what is the comprehensive plan to position our province as a pro-growth province that has competitive taxes, that spends within its means? Are they no longer interested in the targets that all parties endorsed when it comes to the key performance indicators that economists across the world see as what creates the foundation of a good economy? What is the economic plan?

 

Is the economic plan simply what the Premier has said to all his ministers - that they're going to reverse bans? Are they no longer interested in any other sectors? Or is the Department of Growth and Development simply there to do the bidding of the Premier's Office?

 

This is the department that should have the handle on the whole picture and how it's going to benefit our province. How are we going to treat the weaknesses that we are seeing in front of us today, not only in Canada but relative to the whole continent, especially when we're presented with such a challenge as we see starting today?

 

How is the province going to keep Michelin here, and others of our largest exporters, when we have such an uncompetitive tax regime, when they've spent billions and billions every year when they could have been doing more to improve productivity within government and creating the conditions outside of government for growth?

 

There are lots of other jurisdictions where Michelin can go and are already present. They compete with themselves and try to find the best place to expand. This government has no metric where they could show that they've improved the economy over the last four years. No wonder they don't want to talk about all of these goals that I was going to go through one by one and ask the minister where we are.

 

His first answer clearly said he's not interested in the Ivany report, that we're 10 years from then, and it's a different world. So we don't have to talk about tourism. We don't have to talk about exports. We don't have to talk about the importance of bringing venture capital in, and the financial viability of how we can create an environment where businesses look to set up shop.

 

The minister could have just said no. Then I was going to ask him what the next plan is to create a comprehensive economic plan for Nova Scotians. There are a lot of people who are worrying about their economic future. There are a lot of businesses that are worried in Canada, and certainly in our province. We are the province that is at the back of the pack, last in international exports - and this government doesn't want to talk about that.

 

The only time they want to talk about it is to justify new policy around natural resource development. It's odd that in their Throne Speech they actually point to one of their failures of being the worst economic growth jurisdiction on the continent, as if they're a brand-new government. It was a choice they made to not focus on the economy at all, to not invest, to not create a pro-growth province, to not bring budgets forward that actually are pro-growth.

 

This budget is nothing more than adding program costs. There's no stimulus in here. There is no advancing extra infrastructure projects to stimulate economic growth like what took place in the pandemic. We heard nothing of that. We heard of an HST cut, which is part of the cost, and close to a billion-dollar deficit, without even having the impacts of the tariffs come to fruition here.

 

We have little to no financial capacity to absorb this, and certainly not the financial capacity that we had in 2020-21 when the pandemic hit our shores after five back-to-back operating surpluses in the province. While other provinces improve their financial situation - our neighbours - this province spent it. They didn't even want the Legislature approval to spend that money. No scrutiny. The Auditor General has called them out on that. Yet, for political reasons, they proudly say they're going to continue to do it.

 

This whole budget is really a fallacy, because we don't even know what they're going to spend the money on. This is just the start, but by the end of this calendar year, they're going to spend another billion dollars, if history shows, not even related to the tariffs. They're going to find ways that they can spend money politically, just like in the 1980s - high spending, no scrutiny, while they lower taxes. That's not an economic plan. That's not a financial plan.

 

I'd like to ask the minister: What is the actual economic plan for our province? Not Nova Scotia Loyal and wrapping trucks, and now changing it, and Scene+ points and AIR MILES Reward Program, and putting stickers on stuff now, and letters to the Chronicle Herald about Nova Scotians being so evil that they're getting in the way of drilling for gas.

 

What is the comprehensive economic plan that helps all sectors to drive growth, to bring in investment to our province? What businesses want to set up in the province with the least productivity, that's last in international exports, that has shrinking start-up success, that has a government that wants to villainize anyone who won't be their cheerleader, whether that's civil society or that's actual Nova Scotians on their payroll, with the threats? What is that economic plan?

 

THE CHAIR: Order. It is now time for the NDP's turn.

 

The honourable member for Halifax Chebucto.

 

KRISTA GALLAGHER: Thank you to my colleagues. I want to say thank you to the minister for preparing today and thank you to the deputy ministers and the whole team of people up there. I know this takes a lot of work, and I appreciate it.

 

I'm sure the minister won't be surprised that I'm going to ask a lot of Nova Scotia Loyal questions because I am generally just incredibly curious. In preparation for today, I've chatted with a lot of stakeholders and a lot of small business owners. I would like to bring forth a few of their questions.

 

The number one question is: What is it? What is Nova Scotia Loyal? Who is eligible? What is the benefit? What funding are we eligible for? I understand the branding, which is a great start that was announced last week, but it's a big overarching question of: What is Nova Scotia Loyal?

 

HON. COLTON LEBLANC: I was really hoping I was going to be able to respond to the member for Timberlea-Prospect, but perhaps in the next round, I'll have time to respond.

 

I genuinely appreciate the question from the member opposite. Now more than ever, as we've said, it's time to embrace Nova Scotia Loyal. It's much more than your typical “buy local” program. It has morphed into a movement. It has evolved and will continue to evolve as time moves on to meet the needs of Nova Scotians: our producers, our growers, our harvesters who play a vital role in supporting our local economy from one end of the province to the other.

 

The intent is to get more money directly into the hands of our local producers and to create that movement that helps us change the way we spend our dollars and puts our province first. As I mentioned in a previous response, we have a Nova Scotia Loyal procurement policy, our Nova Scotia First procurement policy so that government is putting its money where its mouth is and ensuring that our businesses in Nova Scotia have a 10 per cent advantage when they take part in the procurement process for goods and services for public entity procurement. I believe that's $33,000 and some change for goods and $133,000 for services.

 

One of the things noted during our meeting with the chambers and members of our RENs, REN communities, is that they want more information, so we've committed to that. I believe it was as late as last week that we followed up with some more information on Nova Scotia Loyal, as well as on the procurement side - simply, how to do business with government.

 

I know, as the previous Minister of Cyber Security and Digital Solutions, there's lot of interest from that space of how to do business with government. During my time as minister, there were different events. We actually had folks go to different events and conferences to say: This is how you interact with government. You have to sign up to the tender notification system. That's something we've encouraged businesses that want to do business with government to do - sign up for that system.

 

In addition to the communication piece, Chair, we've also reached out directly to industry, to associations to get more information directly to them. It's alluded to that, Oh well, the government has finally decided to support more than just the one, other than Sobeys and the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation, but that was the intention all along.

 

[4:15 p.m.]

 

What's unfortunate is that sometimes there are statements made on the floor of the Legislature - not by the member posing the question - that do not understand the entirety of the situation. Someone will question, Well, why did it take so long for Loblaws to jump on board? We'll have more to say on Loblaws tomorrow, without letting the cat out of the bag, or perhaps in the next few days.

 

That said, companies need to have an inventory of what Nova Scotian products that they, in fact, sell in their stores. Some stores were readily available to do that; others were not as quick to do that, so we worked with them. We're also working directly with smaller retailers to go. We have some brand ambassadors that go directly in the stores and work with the retailer to identify Nova Scotian products.

 

A few weeks ago as we were ramping up this initiative, I said that we're at a point where something is better than nothing. Do we have to settle for 100 per cent, making sure we have all of the products in a small retail store labelled, for example? No. Let's get that brand out there. Let's get the visual identity that has been out there and get it really ramped up.

 

We made a significant amount of progress in the last four or five weeks. The number of businesses has grown from approximately 122 producers and retailers to over 500 now. That number continues to grow. In part, it's because these businesses recognize that it's easy to join. Yes, there's the online portal where businesses, whether they're on the producing side or the retailing side, can sign up. There's a vetting process for that, and I'll get into that momentarily.

 

We want to encourage all businesses. I've done some personal outreach, as I've mentioned in this Chamber, to a smaller store in my constituency, Carl's Store. I encourage all members to do the same. Narrative Research did a survey in the last couple of weeks and identified that Nova Scotians and all Atlantic Canadians actually want to support local and are willing to spend even more money to buy local, which is a strong testament. We're facing tough economic times as it is, and if Nova Scotians and Atlantic Canadians recognize the importance of buying local and what that can do, that is a strong statement of how our residents, our citizens believe in a strong and united province and country.

 

Another highlight of that survey was that Nova Scotians and Atlantic Canadians were willing to spend more time to shop. Well, as much as I like to shop sometimes, I don't have that much time. I think most people like to get in and get out sometimes and do other things. But we want to make it easier for Nova Scotians to identify the products that are produced, manufactured, grown and harvested here. So that speaks to the labelling program.

 

Last week, we had the opportunity to announce a pilot program, the Nova Scotia Loyal Producer Labelling Pilot Program - that's a tongue twister, I know - where we are investing $300,000 directly with producers. I simply refute that, Oh, this is about supporting the big-box stores - and again, not from the member opposite at this time. Absolutely not. We want to support producers as well and get them onboard this program and support of up to $5,000 per business, up to - sorry, up to $5,000 cost-shared program with $70,000.

 

I'll remind the House that the Scene+ points - I know the member from Timberlea-Prospect criticized Scene+ points and the AIR MILES Reward Program, but the fact is that since this program was launched - and this is a missing part of this discussion. I'm glad that in Estimates, we have a little bit more time to take our time and have a conversation. I made this point with media last week that the original incentive program has enabled more than 160 producers with thousands of products to get on larger-box store shelves at that time. Otherwise, they would not have had that opportunity. Dealing with big-box stores is a pay-to-play environment.

 

Wouldn't it be nice to have a couple of aisles of just Nova Scotian goods? It will be a little bit complicated because some products require refrigeration - whatever they may be. You can walk down the honey aisle and see some Nova Scotian honey. You can walk down the maple syrup aisle. It's Shrove Tuesday, so maybe get some maple syrup for pancakes. You can see some Nova Scotian maple syrup. You go down the granola bar aisle and you can find some Nova Scotian granola bars. You go down through the fruit and vegetable area and find some apples and produce grown right here.

 

We want to make it easier for a customer when they walk in. A Nova Scotian can say, This store is Nova Scotia Loyal, I wonder what products they have to sell. That is on that side, Chair.

 

Specifically, there were some questions like: Who is eligible to be a producer? We have a producer, and we have a definition. The staff do an amazing job of making sure that we have some checks and balances here. To be eligible for the program producers must grow, harvest, craft and/or manufacture their product in Nova Scotia and satisfy one of the following categories. There are three categories. The first: wholly obtained. All inputs to the produce are from Nova Scotia and all transformation occurs within Nova Scotia. For example, the product is grown, harvested or made in Nova Scotia: apples, blueberries, seafood, wooden furniture made here with trees grown in the province.

 

The next category is wholly or substantially produced. All transformation occurs within the province, but not all inputs are from Nova Scotia. So, the product is crafted or manufactured in Nova Scotia. We look at the importation of metallic sheets from outside Nova Scotia to build a boat, using wood and other inputs from Nova Scotia. We look at importing raw gemstones to make jewellery here in Nova Scotia - let's say with Nova Scotian Pewter.

 

Finally, on the producer side, we also have value-added processes, so a portion of the transformation occurs within the province that (1) adds significant physical inputs, which include labour, transportation, energy use. Overhead is not considered a physical input in the transformation. Further bottling, labelling, packaging, and distribution activities are not considered a value-add process. Or (2) alters the product to something new using inputs not available in the province. So the product is constructed, manufactured or fabricated in the province. A couple of examples would be importing coffee beans to make ground coffee or roasted coffee beans. There's a number of great coffee roasters. I know at the Legislature here, we have coffee roasted from North Mountain Fine Coffees in the Annapolis Valley, in Berwick. It was a fun fact when speaking with Scott Burke a couple of weeks ago. A great initiative, a great idea. Awesome coffee, love it.

 

One of the entities of the department is Events East Group, which oversees the Halifax Convention Centre. They made a strategic decision of having either - I won't name the companies - a non-Nova Scotian coffee or a Nova Scotian company, our coffee company. I believe they go with Java Blend Coffee, if I'm not mistaken. I'm sure I'll be corrected if that's incorrect, but we'll go with Java Blend right now.

 

Additionally, producers must have a head office located in the province or are primarily - a minimum of 75 per cent - owned by Nova Scotian residents. The business's primary activity is the production or transformation of a product, and they must sell directly to consumers and/or retailers.

 

Finally, on the retailers' side, retailers must sell one or more products purchased from a Nova Scotian producer, so program, marketing, labelling is limited to be used only on those products made in Nova Scotia. They must be authorized to conduct business in Nova Scotia. So they must be registered, and they must have a permanent business location in the province.

 

As per the above criteria, producers and/or retailers who simply import goods and repackage in Nova Scotia are not eligible to use the labelling program on their products. What's really important here, we have a tremendous team - dedicated staff who put everything, pretty much everything that they have into the success of this program. I really want to thank them here for that.

 

I certainly encourage feedback from retailers and producers, and welcome questions. If there are businesses out there, they can go on the Nova Scotia Loyal website to sign up or find the contact information required to touch base with my team.

 

KRISTA GALLAGHER: Just humour me for a moment. Carl's Store signed up. They go online into the portal. They've signed up. What's next? What does that mean that they've signed up? What are they now eligible for? What's the next step?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: Once the application is received, it's processed. There's a turnaround time of a week if everything is in line. A retailer/producer would be eligible for merchandising, marketing, all of which is free of charge for them. They will benefit from increased traffic. There are a lot more businesses that are signing up - retailers and producers, rather, that are signing up for Nova Scotia Loyal.

 

We actually have a good problem. There's a high demand in our portal right now. We're working as quickly as we can to process those but also making sure that we meet those checks and balances. We don't want to find ourselves in a situation where we have products repackaged as a Nova Scotia Loyal product just because they really believe in the success of the program.

 

We're doing a number of in-store displays. We're doing advertising. We've ramped up our social media and advertising awareness campaigns run by Nova Scotia Loyal. To give some statistics here, we've seen a significant increase through our Facebook channel, through our LinkedIn channel, through our Instagram channel. Website traffic has increased. We're seeing that success and not planning on slowing down anytime soon.

 

KRISTA GALLAGHER: Thank you, minister. That does clear it up a little bit. I've seen the tent signage. I've seen it in stores, so that's great.

 

This is a moment. This is absolutely a moment for Nova Scotia Loyal. We're in a food movement. People want to buy local. People will spend more for it. So I'm incredibly encouraging of this program, because I think it needs to happen, and it needs to happen right now.

 

The minster did bring up Sobeys and Loblaws, so of course I have questions around a couple of big-box stores. I think that the term with Sobeys comes to an end on March 31, 2025, and I'm curious if we are renewing that contract with Sobeys, and at what cost?

 

[4:30 p.m.]

 

COLTON LEBLANC: I'm thankful that the member agrees that we need this program now. I'm thankful for the previous minister responsible for getting this program up on its feet many months ago and ensuring that we are positioned to execute this plan, launch this program.

 

It has evolved so much and will continue to evolve. It's a movement. People see on the different signages and different advertisements, “Look for Local.” It's to create that mindset of looking. They might see that before they see the Nova Scotia Loyal logo, but it's to really emphasize, whether they're at a store that is part of Nova Scotia Loyal or not, or whether a product is part of Nova Scotia Loyal or not, taking the time to look for it.

 

I made a Costco Wholesale run. Sometimes I do Costco runs on my way out of the city before heading home for the weekend, and there was Product of Nova Scotia label. They had apples, and they had different products, which is good and important. It's not everybody who wants to take the time to do that. But going back to that survey data, we want to make it easier.

 

I've personally written to a number of the larger box stores, asking them to join the movement. We've had some positive feedback to date. We'll have more to say sooner than later. But this is truly being embraced by Nova Scotians, by businesses, regardless of their size.

 

Going back to how the program is evolving. We are at a different point in time now with the program than we were eight months ago. The incentive is there for Nova Scotians to look and support local. We will continue with the efforts that we have underway: investing in branding, investing in the consumer programs, including the school voucher program, e-commerce coupon codes, consumer show vouchers, consumer support programs, as well as promotion of local events.

 

To address a positive comment of the member regarding food, there's actually a staff person from the Department of Agriculture who has been seconded to the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development to look at how we work with suppliers, how we work to strengthen the supply chain. Part of that Nova Scotia Loyal movement is bringing in some locally produced foods into the Nova Scotia School Lunch Program. So that's work that's underway. Vital, I think. It's creating a circular economy there.

 

You look at other businesses that are part of the Nova Scotia Loyal program, Terra Beata Cranberry Farm, that has been supported with government and actually been able to craft - maybe craft's not the right word, because they're creating juice - to mix juice for our health care facilities and meet the specific recipe or what's exactly asked for from our hospital facilities.

 

As this program continues to evolve in the days, the weeks, and the months ahead, we'll make decisions on the entirety of the program, whether it's incentive programs, if it's marketing, if it's a support program, if it's branding, and how can we best support our producers. I think that's vital here. Going back to the announcement we made last week, it's making sure that the logo - the labelling - can be directly embedded into new packaging, and is therefore less labour intensive for brand ambassadors and for retailers to add - and for producers, frankly, to manually put stickers on individual products.

 

KRISTA GALLAGHER: My question again to the minister is: Are we renewing the Sobeys contract?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: With all elements of this program, we're currently evaluating and reassessing all those elements, including the current incentive program.

 

KRISTA GALLAGHER: Part of the contract with Sobeys was Nova Scotia Loyal Week at Sobeys. Did that happen - Nova Scotia Loyal Week? Did Sobeys host Nova Scotia Loyal Weeks and how many?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: The merchandising side of things - that would include the Nova Scotia Loyal Week. Part of the agreement we have right now is that we do one per week. I believe that would mean nine since July. We have point-of-sale signage on eligible products in 76 Sobeys, Foodland, and Co-op stores and 57 independent retail locations - more to come there. As minister, I've written letters to senior executives at Walmart, Costco, Lawtons, Shoppers, Home Hardware, Kent, and my favourite store, Canadian Tire, to further expand the program to make it easier for Nova Scotians to identify and choose local.

 

In September, we launched our portal on nsloyal.ca, as we've been discussing. Businesses can access free of charge to order stickers and signage to identify their local products. They're shipped for free, as well. Businesses have the option to participate in a consumer facing buy local directory.

 

We partnered with the Department of Agriculture to migrate a database they had because that was some feedback we had heard from business communities: There's no one-stop shop directory for products, retailers, and different sectors. If you go online on nsloyal.ca now, you can find that and have a breakdown by region, I believe, by product, and by store. To date - these numbers are outdated now because we have over 500 local businesses. We've had a significant uptick in the orders of stickers and signage. We've revised our logo, too, in French and in English, to ensure that during this part of this evolution of the program, the logo has a clear visual identity and “made in Nova Scotia” is included on that logo.

 

We've also worked with folks at the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation to evolve the former Proudly Nova Scotian brand to the Nova Scotia Loyal brand to ensure we have one consistent brand across the province and, more importantly, messaging about buying local. I know we talked a lot about classification for producers and for retailers. When it comes to alcohol beverages, the Nova Scotia Liquor Corporation still classifies or maintains their local classification criteria, and it has remained unchanged.

 

Of note - part of the evolution of the program - the Minister of Natural Resources announced in early February that the Nova Scotia Loyal program was expanding to include all forestry products to complement existing products. We've ramped up our marketing assets, so we're at the Scotiabank Centre - a popular spot. There are a couple other locations downtown that folks will see eventually - of more visual reminders.

 

We recognize the importance of the school vouchers, so we're looking at doing that and, as a member opposite pointed out yesterday, doing it sooner than June. We are doing that, as well. I think it's important that, perhaps at that time - and I'll speak with the Minister of Education after Estimates - to perhaps talk about how we can include a discussion about what it means to support local and to buy local. Last year, 38 per cent of the redeemed vouchers were first-time visits to farmers' markets - popular spots for many. In fact, we expanded that program in October to include post-secondary students through a pilot program in partnership with our Nova Scotia Community College Kingstec, as well as Acadia University. That program concluded at the end of this February.

 

We value the partnerships with our farmers' markets, so we have instant cash incentives so that consumers can receive 10 per cent discount when purchasing directly from producers, and we've made investments to support there. We've provided, this fiscal ending at the end of the month, over 60,000 vouchers at 12 events, with over 600 local businesses participating in the program.

 

Going back to the incentive program, I'll take every moment I have to talk about what that really meant. There are attempts to construe that the money was flowing to big box stores - flowing through, more accurately. It was to ensure there was that loyalty system or incentive system in place. As I've mentioned, it was a partnership in existing consumer loyalty programs on behalf of vital producers, growers, and harvesters in this province - on their behalf - to incentivize purchases of local products.

 

To date, this partnership has supported 162 local businesses with 1,771 eligible local products that otherwise would not have had the chance to be on those store shelves. It's important to digest that and think about what that really means to the bottom line of these producers - huge. I had some good conversations with some of our program participants at the label program launch last week. I remember speaking with, I believe, Cynthia from Axe To Grind, who talked about her business and how it morphed from more of a hobby during the pandemic. She, I believe, unfortunately lost her job and was required - well, not necessarily required, but made the decision - to go all in with this business. She and the Nova Scotian Cookie Company - they make Lighthouse cookies, they're really good. Both those businesses support - I believe it's Mayflower Place in New Minas - a flower garden social enterprise in that community.

 

[4:45 p.m.]

 

It's nice to see and hear the synergies and how interconnected and how much this program has even broader impact than one would initially think about when they go to Sobeys and pick up a bottle of donair spice blend, a drink rim package, cookies, or whatever it may be. This has impacts even for folks sometimes, for social enterprise, which is great.

 

We'll continue to invest or promote local events, whether it be the South Shore Lobster Crawl, Winter Wine Festival, the motorcycle expo, Saltscapes, or a number of different events that showcase local, we'll continue to partner with them.

 

During this fiscal, we have attended or staff have attended - or teams have attended, rather - 148 events and engaged with over 113,000 local consumers.

 

KRISTA GALLAGHER: I just heard the minister say that there are 1,771 Nova Scotia products registered with Nova Scotia Loyal. As I understand it, there was $100,000 announced last week and $100,000 for labelling. I'm pulling out my calculator here because I'm smart but not that smart. I think it was a grant for up to $3,000.

 

If I do the math there, that's 1,771 Nova Scotia Loyal products and $100,000 to get the Nova Scotia Loyal sticker on it. I'm not sure there's enough money there to go around, which is a little disappointing because it's important. The branding exercise is important to get out there. I know for a fact that retailers - or that consumers are looking for that label now.

 

The minister mentioned the school vouchers; I think they were awesome. I second the point of my colleague that we get them out before June. The former minister for the department also mentioned that we could get them to the Immigration Services Association of Nova Scotia - ISANS. Are there plans for getting vouchers to ISANS, as well as the post-secondary, and another round of elementary?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: It's the most math I've done since physics or calculus in university. Clean slate; wipe off the whiteboard. I made an error in speaking. The member has a couple figures that are wrong, too.

 

The total budget for the Nova Scotia Loyal Producer Labelling Program is $300,000. I had previously said $5,000 or up to $5,000 for business. Wrong. Incorrect. It's up to $3,000, and it's a 70 per cent cost-shared grant for businesses. It wouldn't necessarily be math based on the 1,771 products. Those are the 1,771 products that are in the Sobeys stores. We know that there are other stores that have way more. So it would be per business. If a business such as Axe To Grind Foods has multiple packages for multiple different spices, they'd be eligible for the labelling program once. This is a pilot program that we stand behind. We estimate that 100 to 150 companies will take part in this. If there are more, as we have evaluated the program before, we will re-evaluate and continue to best serve the program participants.

 

That said, not everybody is going to want to do a complete rebrand of their packaging and will want to still use stickers. Fine. That's great. Some will require the full amount of $3,000. Others will maybe require $500. It is truly like a physics question in trying to figure out what the exact value is. It's not a simple average.

 

That said, the feedback on that element of the program is very positive. I recognize that some of these businesses, at different times of the year, go and order larger volumes of packaging, and perhaps have just missed that. They might have ordered it in December, and it might be a few months before they order packaging again. Or there might be some beverage companies that are looking now at the next round of ordering cans or bottles, or whatever it may be, that will take part in this.

 

We might not see all these companies having the logo integrated today or next week. It will probably take time, especially for the companies that have a larger bulk volume of different types of packaging to make sure it fits into the financial capacity of their business.

 

KRISTA GALLAGHER: To go back to a question I just asked, do we think that - no, let me rephrase that. The previous minister responsible for Nova Scotia Loyal mentioned that ISANS will be getting the Nova Scotia Loyal vouchers and be included in the program. Is that going to happen?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: Yes.

 

KRISTA GALLAGHER: Thank you, minister, for that quick answer. I'm going to go back to the budget again for Nova Scotia Loyal. I see that $8 million has been designated for the program. I'm curious about what we're doing with that $8 million. Can we have a breakdown of the budget, please?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: The 2024-25 forecast for Nova Scotia Loyal is $6 million. I'll remind the House that that was for a partial year of program implementation. This year, for fiscal 2025-26, in this year's budget, the estimate is $8 million.

 

So if we look at year-to-year, branding, last year we had forecasted $975,000; upcoming fiscal, $1.3 million. Consumer support programs, $900,000; next fiscal, $1.2 million. Consumer support programs, $3.1 million; $4.2 million next fiscal. Then the promotion of local events, $975,000; next fiscal $1.3 million.

 

KRISTA GALLAGHER: I'm going to change topics for my last 15 minutes. I'm curious about what the department is doing to support 2SLGBTQIA+-owned businesses.

 

COLTON LEBLANC: We fund many organizations that support the 2SLGBTQIA+ community and other historically underserved populations. I think of our incubators and accelerators as well. I've got to say that there's a wealth of knowledge and expertise and also support available through Invest Nova Scotia for different programs. We actually have a dedicated export development executive at Invest Nova Scotia who is focused entirely on working with businesses with diverse ownership, including the 2SLGBTQIA+ community.

 

I think of different programs and services to help companies reach new markets outside of our province, which is top of mind during these unchartered waters that we're navigating as a nation. So I think of the Trade Market Intelligence Service, the Export Development Program - which I've spoken at length about - the Market Entry Development Program. There have been different trade missions, Supplier Diversity Certification Pilot Program, different scale-ups, different workshops, and then the Launch Export Atlantic Incubator. Obviously, we're always ready as a government but also as the Crown corporation who delivers really important programs to our business community to be engaged with members across the province and of diverse communities to ensure that we have that feedback and can ensure that they're reflected in future program changes.

 

KRISTA GALLAGHER: We'll go back to Nova Scotia Loyal then. I've got another question. Can the minister please tell me what kind of small business engagement was made in development of the program and who was consulted?

 

[5:00 p.m.]

 

COLTON LEBLANC: Our line for this program now - this movement - was a program built by Nova Scotia for Nova Scotia, and we're seeing that pay off today. We've consulted in the lead up to the program launch last year. Over 10,000 Nova Scotia businesses, producers, retailers, consumers truly informed the entirety of the program from head to toe in all elements.

 

As we continue to evolve and change the program, we continue to consult, engage, and listen to the feedback of producers and consumers - and everybody wants to share some honest feedback with us. The program we launched last week for the labelling program is what we heard from producers. That's an important part of the approach.

 

We do a pilot, learn, and evolve approach, and we will continue on that pathway, looking at ways to get more vouchers, more awareness, more producers, and more retailers on board the Nova Scotia Loyal train, and we are going to keep chugging along.

 

KRISTA GALLAGHER: I'm sorry. I didn't hear who was consulted.

 

COLTON LEBLANC: As I mentioned, Nova Scotia businesses, producers, retailers, consumers - 10,000 of them. I don't know if the member wants the list of them. I don't know if that would be possible. If it's survey data, there are privacy elements to that, so I would have to engage with staff with looking at what's the appropriate way to get that information.

 

KRISTA GALLAGHER: I'm done. My colleague is going to take it from here.

 

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Halifax Needham.

 

SUZY HANSEN: I think we have time for maybe one question on housing. I'm in the housing file, so I'm going to talk about home ownership.

 

The government's housing plan stated that the department plan to explore ways to make home ownership more attainable for Nova Scotians, including by exploring new lease-to-purchase options. I'm curious to know: Could the minister provide an update on this, and is the department close to launching a lease-to-purchase or rent-to-own program?

 

We know there was a jurisdictional scan by the previous minister. I'm wondering what that scan showed, and what the key takeaways were in terms of policy direction that the government is going to take on that plan.

 

HON. COLTON LEBLANC: We talk often about jurisdictional scans in this House. We do jurisdictional scans to see what is being done across the country or in other areas around the world. Just because it's done in one other province or another part of the world, doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea for Nova Scotia or that government will be moving ahead on that type of initiative.

 

Just because you look into something doesn't mean you're going to start moving 100 per cent full steam ahead on it. We do jurisdictional scans all the time. We did them when I was in the previous department, and we will do them in this department. What's important here is that we have different challenges in respective jurisdictions, we have different opportunities in respective jurisdictions, and we have to maximize solutions to meet the needs of our citizens.

 

With that said, we do a lot to support home ownership. We look at supporting or creating the conditions to build more housing. That includes home ownership for folks who want to build their own home or buy their own home. Right now, we do still have the Down Payment Assistance Program that allows first-time homebuyers earning under $145,000 per year to access interest-free funding towards purchasing housing. This program was launched a few years ago, in 2017, and there have been year-over-year increases in program applications. It'll cover the 5 per cent down payment, interest-free, for the home purchase. It's capped by the purchase price set out in the criteria, so that varies by region.

 

The department changed, in January of last year, the eligibility criteria by increasing the purchase price eligibility for home purchases in HRM and East Hants. Current purchase price limits include $570,000 in HRM and the Municipality of East Hants and $375,000 in the Municipality of West Hants and Annapolis Valley, which includes Kings, Annapolis, and Digby counties. In the South Shore, Shelburne, Queens, and Lunenburg counties, and for Yarmouth and the Northern and Eastern regions, including Cumberland, Colchester, Pictou, Antigonish, Guysborough, and Cape Breton counties, the current purchase price limits are $300,000.

 

In fiscal 2021-22, we made changes to the program criteria, including increases to the eligible income and house purchase price caps and an expansion of the first-time homebuyer definition to include those having gone through a marital breakdown. If you look at the number of applications approved - when we formed government in 2021-22, there was an application approval of 50. That has gone up to 190 in fiscal 2022-23; in fiscal 2023-24, it had gone up to 290; and this fiscal year is 373. We continue to offer the Family Modest Housing Program, which was launched way back in the 1980s - late 1980s - and provides a mortgage of up to $70,000 for households with incomes less that $50,000.

 

As was included in our party platform during the election campaign, looking at a loan guarantee program for 2 per cent of a mortgage. As I mentioned, when looking at maximizing solutions, we have an existing program that targets existing housing cap values and existing income levels, so we don't want to create a copy-paste of a program to fulfill a campaign promise. We want to make sure we're maximizing those opportunities for new homeowners and look at - sometimes, the federal government has good ideas, too. If there are opportunities that we can maximize those opportunities for prospective new homebuyers in this province, but recognizing that home ownership is out of reach for some Nova Scotians, and as a government we want to ensure we can help the next generation - this generation and the next generation - make their dreams come true. That's what initiatives like this - investments like historic tax cuts in our government's budget this year, cutting the HST, and making life more affordable for Nova Scotians.

 

THE CHAIR: Order. The time for the NDP questioning has come to an end. Minister, before I recognize the next question, would you and your folks like a recess? Five minutes? Ten minutes? Five?

 

The committee is in recess for five minutes.

 

[5:10 p.m. The committee recessed.]

 

[5:16 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

 

THE CHAIR: Order, please. It is now the Liberal Party's turn.

 

The honourable Leader of the Liberal Party.

 

HON. DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We did economic development last night. We're going to do housing tonight. I have a few questions. I'm going to pass my time over to the member for Colchester North here shortly, but I am going to focus on housing.

 

My first question - and I can table this so the staff can see it. I was talking to someone on the weekend about some of the changes around the rent, and this is a standard letter that would have gone out. Around four months before the lease anniversary date, you will receive a letter from NSPHA requesting information about your income, et cetera.

 

The issue is - and correct me if I'm wrong. There are increases coming to rent, and they had it based out at around 5 per cent per year until 2028, which would have given you the full amount based on - it's an incremental increase. Some people were telling me they were charged immediately, right upfront, the entire amount that was supposed to be budgeted out a number of years. I'm looking for clarification on that. I have this document, and I'll happily show it to the staff. This was something that came up with residents in Sydney.

 

My question, essentially, is: It was supposed to be spaced out over - one, two, three, four - five years, and what I'm being told is that people were charged the full amount right upfront instead of it being paced out, which would be a shock for anyone to receive that. Can I get some clarification from the minister and staff on that? Again, I'm happy to present this.

 

THE CHAIR: Minister, would you like a copy of the document? Got you. Okay.

 

HON. COLTON LEBLANC: Last Fall, the Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency implemented a standard rent model for all public housing tenants and committed to assuming their heating costs. Eighty-seven per cent of tenants were already paying RGI rental rates, and the remaining 13 per cent will be transitioning through rent-geared-to-income, never paying more than 30 per cent of their income toward rent.

 

Because the Provincial Housing Agency is assuming their heating costs, some tenants will experience a significant reduction in overall costs. Other tenants will experience a rent increase based on their monthly household income. To help adjust to their new rental rate, the Provincial Housing Agency is capping rent increases at 5 per cent per year for the three years, following the Residential Tenancies Act, or until they reach their full RGI rate, whichever comes first. They can go up 5 per cent. It pays over three years until they meet their full RGI rate, whichever comes first. Again, tenants will never pay more than 30 per cent of their monthly household income on rent.

 

I'd be happy to have a look at the document the member is discussing. We can continue this offline, if he wishes.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: The issue is that people are paying, and they're telling me they've paid, more than 5 per cent over that year. It was a big lump sum, and all of a sudden - they reached out to Housing, and Housing said, No, this is the change that we are making.

 

This is important. There needs to be some clarification around this because all MLAs may feel this in some cases. I have what was sent to - the person's name is not on this. I took a picture of the page. They're saying that full RGI was implemented right away. It wasn't implemented over the 5 per cent that was indicated - that it was supposed to be.

 

Can the minister confirm that is not happening, and people aren't paying all that up front, which would be, in some cases, big money?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: My commitment to the member and any member of the House, frankly, if they have a concern with a matter with the Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency - of course we encourage tenants to work directly with staff, but if there are outstanding or extenuating circumstances like the one the member is discussing, I'd be happy to look into that. We'll take a copy of that document, and we'll follow up accordingly with the member.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: The biggest thing for me in this is getting a follow-up on it. When you hear that story - I was kind of surprised by it, too. Everybody needs to learn a bit more about it. Hopefully that's not the case and nobody had to pay that all upfront. As we know, the cost of living is tough enough as it is when it comes to support. I appreciate the minister and will happily table that so they can have that for their records.

 

At this point, I'm going to give my time to the member for Cumberland North.

 

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Cumberland North.

 

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: I've got a few questions to start around housing, if that's okay. I'm wondering if the minister and the department are working with CMHC to change the average of rent or costs that CMHC is using in the Northern Zone.

 

Advocates for housing - affordable housing in particular - have told me the numbers that are used to determine rent supplements, for example, in the Northern Zone are based on what CMHC sees as an average rent, which they believe is not accurate. They believe it's very low - too low - and the actual average rents in, for instance, the Town of Amherst, the Village of Pugwash, or the Town of Oxford are much higher than what CMHC is using. Therefore, when someone applies for a rent supplement, what they're eligible for is not nearly enough.

 

When I've written to the department previous to this minister, they basically said it was not within their purview, it's a federal thing, and it's with CMHC. I am wondering: How do we get that changed, and is that something the department is maybe already working on?

 

HON. COLTON LEBLANC: Average market rents are a point-in-time, evidence-based piece of data. It's based on federal data, which is released annually by the CMHC in their rental market survey. We use it to assess eligibility for a number of programs and to set limits on rental rates in our programs. For example, as the member noted, rent supplements are calculated based on the actual rent up to a maximum set below-average market rent, and therefore higher average market rent means more households are eligible.

 

They are the most effective tool. AMRs are released by CMHC. We don't control that because that's data. We don't control the data. It's based on the market. As I noted yesterday in Estimates, it is an average, so we have some rents in that average market rent that fall below, and then there are some rents that fall above. It is the average, recognizing that some many pay higher, and some may pay lower than the average market rent, but we - it's important to note that rent supplements aren't designated to cover the entirety of a rent to the cost of rent.

 

We've made a number of program changes to improve the policies, to ensure improved equity and fairness, and to ensure that more Nova Scotians who need rent supplements are getting rent supplements. We've shaved off time. We've shaved off more than five months of our processing time, even though applications have gone up 19 per cent. We've quadrupled our investment. Even though, as a provincial government, we have increased our provincial contribution to this budget line-item year after year, unfortunately the federal government hasn't stepped up to the plate to take a swing at it.

 

We will continue to lobby the federal government. We believe, as part of addressing affordability within the housing sector, rent supplements are a tool. They're not the only tool, and we believe that improving supply will show and is showing improvements in the housing market right across the province. CMHC's report, recently released, shows they can see supplies are starting to go up, vacancy is starting to go up, and rents are starting to stabilize. We've seen, with average market rents, a cooling off.

 

Last year, the jump in average market rent was about 11 per cent. This year, it is about 4 per cent. Even though it's an increase, it's still showing that that 7 per cent difference - that there's some cooling off in the market. It's proof that our housing plan is working and that our efforts of government to make investments in the housing market across the province and working with community organizations to not only create but also preserve housing, including affordable housing, are working.

 

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: I do appreciate the minister's response, and I realize that it is federal - CMHC - but it is hard when you see the numbers they're using and knowing how far away they are from reality. For an example, and I will share this with the minister, I recently helped a young person - not that young - but a person who was moving from a difficult situation and had trouble finding housing. They did find some housing for this person. It was a motel that had been made into small bachelor apartments. Picture what a motel room - the size of a motel room.

 

It was newly painted and clean, had a new tub unit in a nice bathroom, but really small - a motel room. This person was paying $1,200 per month. That was all inclusive, but still, that seems like such a high number. They didn't even have a real fridge. They had a small bar fridge - and the bar fridge didn't even have any racks in it - a hot plate, no stove, and I was shocked. This person is eligible, based on their income, for a rental supplement, but the rental supplement they're able to get is quite small in relation to the $1,200. Basically, this person has no money for food and is 100 per cent relying on the Food Bank for eating.

 

[5:30 p.m.]

 

I know all of us here in the House have situations similar to that, and all of us are taking people out and buying people food, when necessary, and helping out. I know this is a situation that all of us probably have experienced, but it is hard to see.

 

I will ask another question to the minister in relation to housing. I'm wondering - I'll apologize if the minister has already answered this question to others or in opening remarks - the granny suite program. I wonder if he's able to share with us how many people have applied for that program, and how many people in the province have taken advantage of that granny suite program.

 

COLTON LEBLANC: In our current housing market, we recognize that every home we create, or create the environment for, is needed. Every unit is needed. There's been a high demand or high interest in this program, and we'll continue to move forward.

 

The Secondary and Backyard Suite Incentive Program was announced in October 2023 then launched later in November of that year. Under the program, tenants must either be under the household income limits for affordable housing stream or have a family relationship and meet the age and disability requirements. That's for the supportive housing stream.

 

Tenants under the affordable housing stream will pay no more than 80 per cent of the average market rent for the area, as determined by the CMHC.

 

There was some feedback from clients and staff, so we made modifications in April of last year. We increased the maximum amount of loan from $25,000 to $40,000, up to 50 per cent of the eligible cost. We broadened the definition of family, including persons with disabilities, making it easier by easing administrative requirements and by not requiring initial permits and drawings.

 

In 2023-24, we approved 26 new units. In 2024-25, we approved 286 units. That number has probably gone up a bit, so more than 300 new units. As of late, 63 of those are now complete. It is our estimate that construction is completed within nine months. That's a quick solution to get more affordable housing built faster.

 

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: I'm wondering if the minister sees any pathway for making that even more accessible for more people in the province. I think it's a great idea.

 

Some of the feedback that was given to me is, I believe - it could be wrong - my understanding is that there's only one place in the province that papers can be filed for this program. Some have shared with me that they felt that was a bit of a barrier.

 

A lot of personal financial information has to be shared, like basically all investment information and anything at all that an individual may have. When the information was filed, they felt there may be some security concerns because there was no stamp saying the information had been received by the office where it was taken. There were some concerns shared around that, about significant personal financial information being shared with that office, and some concerns about security there.

 

I do think it's a great idea. We have a business in our area, and the minister is probably familiar with it. If he's not already been, I'd love to invite the minister to come up to the Pugwash area. It's an old industrial building that used to be owned by Seagull Pewter, which was a successful company back in the day. They made pewter products, obviously, in Pugwash, but then when things went offshore, that building was vacant.

 

A local entrepreneur purchased this massive building, was building sheds, and now is building small homes. In fact, some of them qualify for this granny suite program. They're doing tiny homes, they're doing cottages, and they're doing small homes. I don't know if the minister has had a chance to come up and visit that business, but I know the owner, and the local people would love to host the minister and show him. It's quite a business, and it's quite an operation to go in and see.

 

My question to the minister is: Does the department have any plans to grow and expand this granny suite - this Secondary and Backyard Suite Incentive Program - and try to find ways to make it more accessible to more people in the province?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: We share with Nova Scotians their excitement to be part of the solution in building up more housing, whether it be themselves being the builders or coming up with different technologies, whatever it may be. Of course, that's of great interest to my department.

 

Related to the member's question, of course there's always interest in doing more, and we have done more. We've increased the budget for this program. Last year it was $6.9 million, and this year's budget is $10.4 million to enable even more secondary and backyard suites to be built.

 

I'm not sure where the member is going with there being only one spot to drop off information. That can get done at any regional office, and living in today's digital world, applications are done online, or we can go through regular mail.

 

What's more concerning with the understanding that there's financial information being required to be submitted, that's not true. During the construction there's some - as I mentioned, there's the elimination of building permits being provided upfront. The only information of financial sensitivity that would be required would be from the tenant when they occupy the unit to ensure they are meeting the program eligibility criteria and making sure there is some rigour in following through with the rigour when it comes to the different thresholds for the affordable housing stream in the support - yes, for the affordable housing stream - and they're paying no more than 80 per cent of the average market rent when we look at the requirement for folks based on their income levels, as well.

 

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: Some applicants did share with me some security concerns, so I can only convey what I was told. Now that I recall, the minister said it can be mailed, but because - they had told me they did have to share financial information. All investment information had to be provided. All financial - personal financial - information had to be provided for the application. Maybe that's changed, or maybe I misunderstood. That's always a possibility.

 

This was a concern shared to me and that people wanted me to convey to the minister things that they - they did tell me that, because of sensitivity or the personal information, they weren't comfortable putting it in the regular mail. So they did take it to one of the offices, but it wasn't stamped as received or anything. I'm sharing that with the minister. As far as from a security standpoint, those are the concerns with the program shared with me.

 

My last question on housing - I think it's my last question on housing - for the minister is: Can the minister share with me any affordable housing projects the department is currently working on in Cumberland County?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: I don't have the entire breakdown of every specific project. There are a number of projects that haven't been publicly announced yet - I believe approximately 50 units in that region. Also, up in Springhill, we have four public housing units, as well as public housing, I believe, in the Amherst area.

 

That said, we, as a government, build within the spectrum on public housing, but we do also invest in the Affordable Housing Development Program. We help with acquisition programs for community partners and non-profits. We've increased our budget. In the last two years, we've invested $120 million, which is a significant uptick - or a significant increase in that budget line item because for years it was neglected. We'll continue to make those investments and work with our community partners to not only build but also preserve existing units, including affordable units.

 

We also have land that's made available through the Land for Housing Program through the Province, which is a number of parcels of land available throughout the province that are posted for property opportunity notifications. We have more in the hopper. I believe 33, as of last count, have been put out there, but we have to make sure those sites are ready and zoned appropriately. Of course, if they're serviced by municipal services, that's even better. There are lots of moving parts on that front.

 

I do want to go back again to the member's question on concerns about security. Government as a whole deals with lots of sensitive information - deals with a person's financial information. As employees of government, they have access to some of my financial information. Even as MLAs, we help, through our constituency offices, deal with financial situations, as well. A program we administer through Housing is the Home Adaptation Program, where we do ask for financial information, including Notices of Assessment, T4s, and proof of investments.

 

[5:45 p.m.]

 

I don't think anybody - I hope nobody - is living in fear when they come to deal with government and asking for help. At least within our staff - I can speak for my own department and as an MLA - my staff take their highest precautions to maintain that safety of that sensitive information and make sure it gets in the right hands to support people and get them the help they need when it comes to housing.

 

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: Thank you to the minister and thank you for those comments.

 

Certainly, the reason I shared the concerns that were brought to me, Chair, was that this was one particular individual who is used to dealing with documents and that. Their feedback was a lot of times when you're sharing those kinds of sensitive documents, sometimes there will be a stamp that it has been received, or some type of documentation or something that those papers - I did just message the person to confirm that I heard correctly. What they shared is that in the application they did have to provide bank statements and investment documents that they had the funds for a mortgage confirmation letter for the secondary suite. Hopefully that helps explain.

 

Some other feedback on the secondary suites is that there's no conformity in Nova Scotia between municipalities. The HRM allows 925 square feet, for example, while East Hants is 860 square feet for a secondary suite. Their suggestion is that it would be better if all municipalities were the same and there was conformity throughout the province. I'll just share that feedback with the minister.

 

Going back to the affordable housing question, certainly the reason I'm asking the question of the minister is because it is something that is very important. I will share, it's not something I knew a lot about before I became an MLA. I know and value the importance of housing as a nurse and working in health care but I never really understood the public housing and affordable housing and all the different types of housing.

 

I also didn't really appreciate how many people living in our area can't afford housing and how many people would not have a place to live if they didn't have public housing.

 

Certainly, I can say as the MLA for Cumberland North, how grateful I am for all the public housing that we have in our area, in the Town of Amherst. In Wallace we have Remsheg Villa, in Pugwash we have some and throughout the town. We're certainly very grateful for what we have, and the department staff work closely with my MLA assistant and I am sure with all. Grateful for that, for sure.

 

I know we have some incredible non-profits in our community, such as the YMCA, in particular. They were able to get funding for a duplex, or a fourplex, I guess. My understanding is that they also have another project on the go. I really wanted to ask that question. I'm sure the minister knows the need and the demand here in the province but I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't bring that up.

 

I guess maybe I'll finish off that question. Just to clarify, I know there was some public housing, affordable housing money, allocated for Springhill. Just to ask again, is there any money that the minister knows that is allocated for any affordable housing, new builds in particular, for Cumberland North? That would be the area from Amherst through to Malagash.

 

COLTON LEBLANC: To go back to the member's feedback, which is appreciated, on the Secondary and Backyard Suite Incentive Program. As with any program, there are some eligibility criteria. There's rigour to make sure the money is getting to the right people and we're avoiding fraudulent cases. In this case, where we are lending money to Nova Scotians, there is some rigour to ensure checks and balances, as if they were going to the bank.

 

I appreciate that some folks may have some concerns dealing with some financial information, but we have to make sure we're checking off the right boxes and maximizing a finite resource to support as many Nova Scotians as we can.

 

Relating to municipalities on their zoning, every municipality has different zoning. It impacts where short rentals can go, where residential can go, where commercial can go, and where resource can be - or is. We recognize that it differs by municipality, and of course we encourage municipalities to make it easier to build more housing and encourage development in their perspective jurisdictions.

 

To the member's question: Yes, we're investing in public housing, so a total of 515 new units have been announced over the last 18 months. We have made investments in rent supplements. I know we've talked about that at length so far. Those two items are tools in the toolbox. They are not a tool for everybody, and they're not a tool that's going to fix the housing challenges in our province. That's it.

 

We know they are meaningful - those tools - when swung. They bring a meaningful impact for many Nova Scotians. For years, rent supplements - or future investments in rent supplements or maximizing and modernizing our rent supplement programs - were sort of brushed off and put on the corner of a desk, like a few other things.

 

Since we've formed government, we've revised those policies, ensuring improved fairness and equity for Nova Scotians and that Nova Scotians - frankly, the most vulnerable Nova Scotians - who are in need of a rent supplement get it. We're trying to do that more quickly.

 

As the member noted yesterday, a couple months is a long time when you're trying to make ends meet, and I agree. We've shaved off five months of the processing time - a wait time.

 

There's still room to improve. We will continue to make improvements to the policies and programs. That's it - shaving off more than five months when we also had a 20 per cent increase in applications.

 

The dedication, determination, and will are there, not only from a policy improvement side of things but also on the investment side of things. Four years in a row, our government has improved the rent supplements, recognizing the need and the use of that tool.

 

On public housing: The previous minister, now the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board, announced 222 back in 2023. There were also 51 modulars announced. A couple weeks ago, I announced 242 as part of our capital 2025-26 budget, so that alone is the largest single investment in new public housing in the province. All that together means 515 new units - needed units - recognizing there are over 7,000 people on the wait-list.

 

When it comes to public housing, we're also looking at a program policies review, ensuring we can maximize the number of units we have in our portfolio. I don't believe government should be the only landlord in this province. There is a role for public housing, but it's not the be-all-end-all solution to the housing challenge.

 

Staff do a great job to manage 12,000 units. We have over 20,000 tenants in the province, but we also recognized over the last number of years that within those finite resources we have, there are some folks who are over-housed. So perhaps a situation has evolved. Our own individual situations evolve year over year. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

 

In some situations, we have units that are multi bedroom, which tenants now have - two, three vacant bedrooms. At the same time, we also have families who are on the wait-list and need public housing and identified need. So we're addressing the over-housing issue. That's important to do to maximize what we already have - recognizing, yes, we will be building more, and that takes time.

 

Also on public housing, there are other opportunities to maximize what we have. For me, it comes down to making sure that we can get people into housing quicker. We have priority access for folks - women and persons fleeing gender-based violence. We've made some efforts there as well - to support folks experiencing homelessness.

 

Lots in that wheelhouse that's under way, and it's positive work to get more people housed faster and ensuring that we're meeting the needs of today. Those are going to evolve during my time here, and with the next minister. It's going to evolve in the next 10 years. I hope that future governments, regardless of political stripe, will continue to maximize these resources, and maximize the full potential of the portfolio and programs, and the policies that govern the agency.

 

On the affordability side, as I've mentioned, we have different programs to support our community housing partners. We have the Affordable Housing Development Program. In 2022-23, we invested $37 million, which was for 15 projects, 321 units, 262 of those being affordable. The community housing numbers, there were 203 units and 8 projects.

 

The last fiscal of 2023-24, we invested $44.5 million for 13 projects, 276 units, 204 affordable; 164 units and 6 projects were with community housing partners. Then this fiscal we invested $22 million for 12 projects, 335 units, 184 affordable. Then if you break it down, 288 units and 8 projects in community housing.

 

So in budget 2025-26, we've included $24.2 million. That is broken down into two different streams: the Affordable Housing Development Program that supports our community housing partners, and also a dedicated $10 million stream for the Student Housing Development Program. We work, as I noted, to make provincially-owned land available. We're supporting the Preston Area Housing Fund with supports there. Those are just some of the initiatives.

 

We know that there are a number of projects under way, many of which haven't yet been publicly announced. I believe there are 50 units overall in the member's region that have not yet been announced. I'm very much looking forward to sharing this good news of community partners. They are really doing amazing work.

 

I was at the Housing Summit in January. It was one of my first events - recognizing the true impact that our community housing partners are making on the ground. They are some of our best landlords in the province. No offence to the Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency, but they are some of the best landlords in the province and they are doing the good work.

 

[6:00 p.m.]

 

The success that we've talked about in our Action for Housing Plan is not the success of myself or the department, or the previous minister, or a minister before that, or future ministers. It is truly the success of community. It is the success of Nova Scotians. We are the first government to recognize that we need a housing plan. It's been a long time coming.

 

So between 2023 and 2028, we're investing $2.3 billion to support more housing. Couldn't do it fast enough. As I've mentioned before, we are meeting or exceeding all of those targets as outlined. I previously published the latest - actually the first progress report. It was a snapshot in time for the first 18 months, and we're meeting or exceeding all of these targets. That is a testament to not only our government's commitment, but also the will of government to address what we're experiencing in the housing market.

 

When we look at housing, we look at the entire spectrum from folks experiencing homelessness and needing support in a certain environment to transition homes to long-term care facilities to public housing to home ownership, whatever that may look like. We've cut miles and miles of red tape. We're sharpening our scissors again to keep going. We want to break down these barriers. We've talked a lot about breaking down barriers with interprovincial trade. We also need to break down barriers to construction.

 

But we know that there's a need for housing. We had a target of, I believe, 42,000-and-some new units to create the conditions for that number from here to 2028. I'm proud to say that we're at 125 per cent of that 2028 target. That doesn't mean we're slowing down or that we're going to stop. It's pedal to the metal.

 

We will leverage any opportunity to do more. We will leverage every penny, every nickel, every dime that we have to do that, to maximize and work with other levels of government. We have partnerships with municipalities. We have partnerships with the federal government through funding streams available there. We want to make sure that the investments that are being made in Nova Scotia are delivering results.

 

Part of the housing equation is - of course, it's nice to have the building itself, but also, we have to talk about roads to get people and goods in and out of communities across the province. There's significant investment in this year's budget to do just that. The Minister of Municipal Affairs has talked about significant money that's on the table for municipalities to tap into, that we are ready to partner with, for water and sewer projects.

 

Nobody thinks of water and sewer until it's not working, right? If you can't flush the toilet, you've got a problem. You turn on the tap for water, and you don't have it - that's a problem. So having that invisible infrastructure is critical - it's key. It's also key when we look at it from an economic development perspective. I know that in certain parts of the province, there's aging infrastructure when it comes to water lines and sewer lines.

 

Back home in Yarmouth, I joined the town and mayor there last year for investments there - actually, investment in the water tower in East Pubnico. Investments ensure that this type of critical infrastructure can ensure not only building more homes - which we all need in all of our constituencies - but also support the growth of our traditional industries and growth of new opportunities for our communities. So there's a lot of good work happening there.

 

We know that affordable housing is part of the continuum. Like I mentioned before, we've made significant investments in that sector: $120 million for the creation or preservation of 1,400 units. Some might say that's nothing to shake a stick at, but every unit matters. We've heard of situations where developers have not taken the opportunity to tap into provincial resources. It was the member for Halifax Needham yesterday who talked about Ocean Breeze. Listen, I think all members in this House can agree that when we lose a unit, regardless of the cause - whether it be for a fire, whether be a developer having different plans - it has a negative impact on the housing market that has some dire consequences for Nova Scotians.

 

We're ready, staff are ready - a phone call away - to look at projects, work with developers, work with non-profits, work with our community sector, work with municipalities to leverage funding that we have.

 

Government is not the only one swinging the hammer here. There's a role for everybody. We welcome the opportunity to build more housing for all Nova Scotians even faster.

 

ELIZABETH SMITH-MCCROSSIN: My question was - and I'll just ask the same question again: Is there any affordable housing or public housing being built in Cumberland North?

 

I'll add to that question. The minister mentioned about provincial land that's available. Is there any provincial land available in Cumberland North?

 

I will just add that I do have a commitment so I will cede the rest of my time to the NDP colleague.

 

COLTON LEBLANC: Related to the land, there's a parcel of land that is publicly posted through a partnership opportunity through the Land For Housing Program that's in Springhill. Under the Affordable Housing Development Program there are three projects for a total - again as I noted - 50 units that have not yet been publicly announced. As I mentioned, I am looking forward to sharing more of that information in the member's area.

 

Related to public housing, as was previously announced, within the 51 modular units that were announced previously, there is a total of 12 people housed out of a total of 4 units in the Springhill area. Then there are two modular units in Amherst that have been posted there.

 

I'll remind the member that the 242 new public housing units I announced a couple of weeks ago, there has been no site selection completed yet. That work is under way to complement what has already been announced. Those conversations are under way, and I very much look forward to being able to share more information there.

 

I have a lot more appreciation and growing understanding, I should say, for community housing. I think the government's investments there to increase the amounts committed and also disbursed in the last number of years for a total of over $120 million in the last two years speaks volumes.

 

We recognize that we also need new supply. I just mentioned about supply and public housing, but across the board, I think it's an important part of these budget deliberations to note that as of January of this year, $27.6 million has gone toward 12 community housing projects. That's for 335 total units, 184 of those affordable.

 

The year prior, we had $36 million to support new community housing projects. That would be to deliver 164 new units - 128 of these affordable. We talk about housing across the spectrum. Our government has addressed housing for health care, so out of those numbers, we had 112 housing units for health care workers. In the fiscal prior, in 2022-23, we invested $32.5 million in 8 community housing projects to develop 203 units - again, 171 of those units affordable.

 

I talked a bit about the Community Housing Growth Fund. That's another important fund - 103 projects have been awarded for $4.1 million. Eighteen per cent of the funding has been awarded to groups representing Indigenous people and people of African descent. Then we actually dedicated $2 million of that investment for Black-led community housing initiatives.

 

We look at preservation, but upkeep is important also. Through the Rental Residential Rehabilitation Assistance Program - that's a tongue twister too - it provides financial assistance to upgrade the condition of existing rental units to preserve affordability. This fiscal, ending in December 2024, $985,000 has been disbursed for 45 units; $4.6 million budgeted with a target of 190 units.

 

Again, I said there's money on the table. There is money on the table. Government will - we will do our part and we will always want to do more. I think it's important when we're talking about programs and we're asking questions for all MLAs to know that yes, there is money on the table and we want to partner with people to be part of the housing solutions in this province. That's another good one.

 

The Community Housing Infrastructure and Repair Program. Again, we're working with our non-profit housing providers to repair existing affordable housing units. A tremendous amount of work had gone into this program to support 230 units up until this January, for an investment of $7.8 million. The year before that we did an investment of $9.8 million for 187 units. Then in 2022-23, $19.7 million for 450 units.

 

[6:15 p.m.]

 

Every unit matters. One that I spoke about before - the Community Housing Acquisition Program - is another one ready to help. It's repayable loans for the non-profit housing sector - for those providers to acquire affordable units. If they're on the market, we want them to remain in the market, so that's a program available. To date, over $29 million has been loaned to preserve 495 affordable homes; 176 are considered supportive housing units targeted toward our most vulnerable.

 

Finally, the Community Housing Capital Fund is an initial investment of $3.5 million to provide equity contributions to pre-qualified community housing organizations that have a desire, the capacity, and a robust business plan. We want to make sure we're putting our money to open up new markets appropriately - or new doors, new units appropriately - to grow their housing portfolio through the acquisition of existing residential properties.

 

THE CHAIR: Order, please. It is now the turn of the Official Opposition.

 

We will take a short recess.

 

[6:16 p.m. The committee recessed]

 

[6:18 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

 

THE CHAIR: Order.

 

The honourable member for Halifax Needham.

 

SUZY HANSEN: I'm going to touch on housing and go back to home ownership again. The minister did give some details about launching the lease-to-purchase or rent-to-own program. I'm curious to know why it was in the housing plan if we weren't going to even explore it or create a policy in place for that.

 

HON. COLTON LEBLANC: I will quote directly from the housing plan. It's on Page 22, the second bullet: “We will explore innovative tools and programs, such as lease to purchase options, to make homeownership more accessible and attainable for Nova Scotians.”

 

We are looking into options. I guess exploring doesn't mean you are going to find something that you necessarily want to run with. We know there are other jurisdictions. I believe P.E.I. has a pilot program on this initiative. Of course we're interested in “test try” initiatives. We like to see what other jurisdictions have tried. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

 

With this type of program, the success has not been as favourable as perhaps hoped for in other parts of the country. We will continue to look at solutions that best meet the needs of Nova Scotia. Nothing is off the table, but we want to make sure that when we're investing millions and hundreds of millions of dollars, that they are having a big impact for the province and that we're helping to bridge that gap for not only home ownership but also supply and affordability.

 

SUZY HANSEN: Before I get going, I wanted to say that the member for Cumberland North says thank you. Sorry they had to leave but we're being pulled in many directions in here sometimes. As well to the staff, the member for Cumberland North says thank you.

 

We could talk about this for a long time, but I will say that just listening to the minister talk about how there's money on the table, we've got to do our part, we've got to do more. Yes, we have a difference of opinion at times on a number of things, but when we talk about how we can do things for all Nova Scotians, you're right, one size does not fit all, and we have to explore all these options so we know there can be an option for all Nova Scotians and not just a few or a couple.

 

There are programs that are there. I'm grateful that the minister spoke about DPAP and raising that price because when you think about buying a home in the HRM, $575,000 is really not a whole lot when you think about the price of homes right now.

 

I just wanted to say that. I'm going to move on from home ownership and I'm going to go into public housing. I'm going to ask a couple of questions for some specific numbers. How many are currently on the wait-list for public housing? Can the minister provide a clear breakdown on how many are on the wait-list in each region of the province?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: I'll remind everybody that the Provincial Housing Agency operates and manages over 12,200 public housing units in more than 2,000 buildings across the province. Our buildings vary in size to meet the needs of tenants across Nova Scotia, so sometimes we need a multi-unit residential complex. Sometimes it's a stand-alone residential home. Sometimes it's a duplex. What we're seeing now - we're building modules, for example.

 

At the end of December 2024, about 97 per cent of the units were occupied, so the vacancy rate is 2.8 per cent. That's down from 3.3 per cent the year prior, but our target is 3 per cent. At the end of 2024, the average unit turnaround time was 101 days. Between December 2023-24, we had a number of move-outs, which resulted in a net move-out.

 

Again, we know there are a number of folks who are over-housed. There are 1,807 over-housed households living in public housing, with one or more bedrooms over the guidelines, down from 1,986 over-housed households in December 2022. We're making progress, and we'll continue to address that.

 

If we look at the breakdown by household type, seniors represent 69 per cent of households, families represent 25 per cent, and individuals and couples represent 6 per cent. That 25 per cent that requires more than one bedroom is a challenge because of the composition of our portfolio.

 

When you look at the wait-list, as the member has been asking, we can break it down. The number as of December 31, 2024 is just north of 7,700 - 7,737 households waiting. By region, there's obviously - based on population - more in Halifax, about half of that, so about 3,456; Cape Breton, 1,095; Northern, 1,541; and Western, 1,645. All this data here informs the department on where future public housing builds will take place.

 

We have seen some fluctuation in the wait-list. We've also supported a number of Nova Scotians with priority access, which I've talked a bit about - folks experiencing family violence. We supported 56 households there. We supported 147 experiencing homelessness, 10 living in inadequate housing, and seven needing to be closer to life-sustaining health services. Our current priority access wait time is about eight months for housing since receiving priority status, and we'll continue to work to shorten that timeline.

 

[6:30 p.m.]

 

With that said, there were some questions during QP the other day about accessibility. We know that the majority of our tenants are seniors - many of whom want to age in place, so we look at ways to support them.

 

There is an increasing number of folks who are asking for accessibility upgrades, so we're doing that. If we look at the average age of our buildings, an average is over 40 years old. They require . . . (Interruption) Yes, on average. It's like average market rent - higher and lower. We're going to be adding some new ones soon here. With age, they require some significant upgrades. We've done some roof and window replacements and updates to HVAC and electrical systems in elevators. In general, most of our buildings are assessed to be in fair condition under the facility condition index, meaning there is noticeable wear and tear that needs to be addressed, but most importantly, the buildings remain safe for the tenants.

 

We're making more units accessible and trying to preserve these units. In fiscal 2024-25, the Provincial Housing Agency committed over $48 million to undertake 924 projects in 733 public housing buildings. The focus of these projects was to preserve and maintain the existing housing stock and to ensure a longer-term stability of that public housing portfolio. For example, work is under way to address building repairs urgently needed at Mulgrave Park. There are many others. There are 923 other examples.

 

We're implementing some energy efficiency programs - 182 energy efficiency programs - in over 174 buildings, impacting 1,900 units. That's a significant number of units when you look at our overall portfolio of 12,200. We have an energy and emissions management plan. We want to reduce our public housing portfolio's energy consumption and decrease our greenhouse gas emissions in alignment with our provincial targets.

 

As of last March - this time last year - we invested over $14 million to create 51 barrier-free units and complete accessibility upgrades to an additional 165 units to meet accessibility targets established in the National Housing Strategy bilateral agreement.

 

Moreover, over the next three years the Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency will invest another $9 million from federal contributions and $21 million from provincial contributions - funding under the Affordable Housing fund - to support even more efficiency upgrades to an additional 900 units by December 2026. Of those 900 units, 180 units will also receive accessibility upgrades.

 

I'm trying to paint a picture here that we know every unit matters. We know that with aging infrastructure, upgrades have to be made. We're making those upgrades. We know there are more Nova Scotians who want to age in place. We want to support them by doing so.

 

We understand that we need to make some HVAC improvements. We're doing that, recognizing that we want to put our money where our mouth is and decrease our greenhouse emissions. We are doing that through these investments as well. These are investments in Nova Scotia, in a portfolio that we're trying to maximize and ensure that at the end of the day, we improve fairness and equity for the tenants - for the Nova Scotians on the wait-list - and that we can get more people into public housing faster by implementing these policies for the betterment of the province.

 

SUZY HANSEN: That answer already got me checking off things on my questions that I was going to ask. For the new public housing units that this government has announced, how many have already been delivered, and has land been selected for all those units announced?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: We know, as we've been discussing over the last seven hours in Estimates and during our time in this session, that we need more homes. We need more deeply affordable homes. We need homes right across the board. That's why the initial announcement - if you take the 51 modulars and the 222 new units that were announced by the previous minister, they will provide housing to more than 700 individuals and families.

 

In fact, we're using modular housing design and builds to open more housing faster for Nova Scotians. It's a quicker solution. Of those 273 units, 100 of those would be fully accessible - to dovetail on my last response there. Modular construction allows site prep and factory assembly to happen at the same time. Going back to what we were talking about earlier today, with the Minister of Agriculture saying that we can do two things at once, this is something where we're doing two things at once. We're doing the site prep, and we're building the homes and making it happen faster. It minimizes disruption. It ensures higher quality control at the end of the day.

 

The 222 are multi-storey modular buildings. It's represented through a multi-year investment of $83 million under the National Housing Strategy bilateral agreement. The province footed $58.8 million, and the CMHC came through with the other $24.2 million. These will be 222 new rent-geared-to-income public housing units in multi-storey buildings across the province. They're going to address the capacity we need, the accessibility targets we've identified, and helping our province exceed its nine-year goals in the bilateral agreement.

 

The sites were previously announced. Chair, I know you are really happy that there are 22 units being built in Glace Bay - 12 of those to be barrier-free. An additional 56 people will be housed. The tender has been awarded, and target completion is Summer 2025. Can't wait for the warmth.

 

Another project is slated to be completed in the Summer of 2025, and the tender has also been completed - the project located in Lower Sackville. It is 20 units. Ten of those will be barrier-free, housing approximately another 40 people.

 

In Kentville, 11 units planned - five of those will be barrier-free and 25 people approximately would be housed. That tender has been awarded and will be complete by the Fall of 2025. Grant Étang - depends on how you say it - 11 units planned, 5 barrier-free, 32 people housed. The tender is currently open - target completion Summer 2026.

 

In Bridgewater, 21 units planned, 10 of those barrier-free, 94 people being housed. The tender is open and that project as well has target completion of Summer 2026. Lower Sackville, 100 units planned, 30 of those barrier-free, approximately 300 people being housed. That tender is open and the project is slated for completion in the Summer of 2028.

 

Bible Hill, seven units planned, three barrier-free, approximately 20 people housed. The tender is cued so it's ready to be posted the Summer of 2028. Then in Halifax, 30 units planned, five of which are barrier-free, approximately 90 people will be housed. The tender is also cued and that project is also slated for completion in the Summer of 2028. That's 222 units, 80 of those barrier-free, 657 people being housed upon completion.

 

The 51 units - so single-family and multi-unit modular buildings. The Province invested almost $20 million to build 51 2-bedroom and 3-bedroom modular housing units. These will be operated by the Provincial Housing Agency as rent-geared-to-income public housing units and provide new homes for approximately 170 low-income individuals and families.

 

In fiscal 2023-24, $8.1 million was invested for 25 modulars. In this current fiscal, $11.8 million has been allocated for a further 26. The funding for all of those 51 units is provincial funding. It's redirected from Wildfire Emergency Housing support.

 

For the single-family building types, they are at various locations, which I apologize that I do not have at my fingertips. So 13 units, none of which are barrier-free but have housed and are housing 51 people - those are completed single-family builds.

 

Again Glace Bay, more housing there, a total of eight units for a total of four barrier-free units for a total of 24 people being housed. That project is completed as well. That's a fourplex.

 

In Springhill, four units there - two of which are barrier-free, 12 people approximately being housed in that project there as well - is completed.

 

Taking a drive down Highway No. 101 - eightplex in Digby. Eight units, four of which are barrier-free, approximately 24 people being housed. That's scheduled for completion in the Summer of 2025.

 

[6:45 p.m.]

 

Keep going down the shore, skip over Yarmouth and go to Shelburne. I'll go back - we'll have to take a detour. Eight units in Shelburne, four of which are barrier-free. Approximately 24 people are being housed. That's scheduled for completion in Spring 2025.

 

We've got to detour and go back down to Argyle - go to Wedgeport specifically - for a duplex: two units, both of which will be barrier-free, housing approximately 10 people. That project is currently scheduled for completion this Summer. Going back toward Highway No. 103 and the final stop in Liverpool - eight units, four of which are barrier free, and approximately 24 people being housed. That project, as well, is scheduled for completion in 2025.

 

On the 242 units, I know, Chair, you want them to be all in Glace Bay, but I'm sorry to say that without having a plan, it's not going to happen. For the member, I'm excited that we've invested north of $173 million in these new housing units - needed housing units - to build on that supply. Work is underway to at look exactly where they will be constructed.

 

We're looking at provincially owned land because that's easy to deal with, but we're also looking at land that's serviceable - that's already serviced. If there are opportunities to partner with different property owners and municipalities, we'll entertain that.

 

There have been some questions about math, and that's what budgets are about. I'll go back to the math formula yesterday about doing the 173 divided by 242, and it gives you $500,000, but let's remember that I respectfully submit that's not a fair representation of the cost to build door-to-door.

 

We know that for some areas, we will need to acquire land; other areas, we will not need to acquire land. There are areas that will have to have parking lots, and we want to make sure, with what we're building today, that we don't find ourselves in a similar situation of chasing our tail in 40 years' time - I won't be here - but that we meet the gold standard of today's building standard.

 

If it's on accessibility, energy efficiency, or whatever it may be, we want to make sure we're meeting the mark and those units are there for generations to come and have a positive impact on the housing supply.

 

THE CHAIR: I'm happy to get off the tour bus for a moment.

 

The honourable member for Halifax Needham.

 

SUZY HANSEN: I've done this drive multiple times, so I'm used to it now. I want to say, based on what I asked about how many were announced and how many have been delivered, from my calculations - and I'm being nice about the numbers - it seems as though under 40 of them are ready to be in right now, out of 273.

 

I know there's work in progress, there are tenders out, and there are projected timelines for 2025 to 2028, but my question is: How many are ready right now? When I think of an announcement, I think, Oh my goodness. Something's ready. It's almost there. We're getting close.

 

We are so far from where the number is stating to where we are based on the information I'm getting. I wanted to be clear because I know the minister said the math is not quite mathing, but I do know that $136.4 million divided by 242 units is $563,600 or so per unit. If we have non-profits that can build them for $400,000 per door, then we might want to explore those options.

 

My next question is: Many seniors are falling through the holes in this government's housing plan. We heard from the minister, speaking about seniors needing a place, in the previous commentary. We've seen an increase in the number of seniors experiencing homelessness, to the extent that one of the province's Pallet shelters is now senior-specific.

 

Are there discussions in the department on how to specifically support seniors to ensure they do not become homeless? I know that there are a number of units that are going to be one-bedrooms. So I'm just curious to know, based on the wait-list and based on the numbers we know who are seniors who are homeless or experiencing homelessness, are we working towards making sure that seniors actually have a place to call home so they don't have to be out on the streets?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: There's quite a bit here to digest and talk about. Again, every unit matters. We are taking action to prioritize upgrades to public housing again and to ensure that the safety of our tenants is of utmost importance, as well as looking at how to improve tenant comfort.

 

I know I went through a number of investments that we're making there. We need to make sure that the stock is kept up and in a safe condition.

 

Again, Chair, we know that 69 per cent of our 12,200 tenants are seniors so if you do the quick math, that's almost 8,300. So when we're doing these investments in public housing, they are investments in the majority of our tenants so we'll continue to do that.

 

Again, we know that seniors - not just seniors as well - are asking for accessibility or accessible units. As I mentioned before, we are making investments there to meet the needs of our tenants and address long-standing issues.

 

We also spoke earlier this evening about the Secondary and Backyard Suite Incentive Program. There's actually a stream dedicated for seniors there so Nova Scotians can benefit from this program - to get a loan through the Province to build a backyard secondary site for seniors. Again, it's creating more affordable housing even faster. The average construction time is nine months. I know the member referenced that we've made announcements on housing and there have been a number that have been completed.

 

Things take time. If only we would have announced these 10 years ago, we would be perhaps having a different conversation. The reality is that here we are today. There are limitations. We can run and we are running, but you can only run so fast. There are things out of our control. There are capacity issues within the skilled workforce, for example. There are some implications for - even though modular is faster, you can only build so much. There are supply chain issues.

 

We're not letting those challenges slow us down or get us down. We will continue to move forward as fast as we can. I rhymed off those timelines and if we can go faster, we will. We recognize - staff recognize the need to go fast because it's not just about building a building; it's a roof over somebody's head. It's a new, safe, and affordable place for them to call home. We know the urgency there.

 

When we look at other initiatives to keep all Nova Scotians - and I know the member was asking specifically about seniors - nobody wants to see anybody move into a situation where they're experiencing homelessness. We've done a lot of work to increase the budget for the Home Repair and Accessibility Program. I know it's a highly subscribed program. I know through my constituency office that we have a lot of people, primarily folks who are seniors. I think 70 per cent of the population of those who are assisted through this program are, in fact, seniors.

 

[7:00 p.m.]

 

We've made the investments and we've looked at changes to remove different barriers to increase the stock and preserve units, like I've talked at length about. This program here is just another way to continue that progress. For folks who may not be aware, this program here allows low-income homeowners to complete necessary health and safety repairs and even accessibility adaptations, helping them remain safely housed and extending the life expectancy of their other property. It helps them stay in their homes. We want to help folks, and in this case, seniors, stay in their homes.

 

A lot of success with this program. It is very popular, as I mentioned - in high demand. The largest uptake of the program is in the western region for reasons that there are higher rates of home ownership and also, unfortunately, the highest percentage of those in core housing need. Core housing need is defined as a two-stage indicator to identify households and dwellings that are considered unsuitable or inadequate or unaffordable. This program here is having a real impact on Nova Scotians, and we will continue to make these investments.

 

A couple years back, in 2022, an external consultant was hired to review the program, the delivery process, and identify opportunities to streamline the application process to help reduce waste. I think any time in government that we can make it easier for Nova Scotians to ask for help is a step in the right direction. I know that with previous programs that I oversaw, they were sometimes cumbersome, and we want to make it easier. Looking at income verification through the CRA - make it easier. So instead of sending in a bunch of paperwork to government, we can streamline and get money into the hands and the pocketbooks of Nova Scotians who need it the most. Of course, we will look at opportunities to reduce wait times, and the first phase of recommendations will be actually implemented early this fiscal year that is coming.

 

We've seen not only an increase - an uptick of the program, in the demand for the program - but over the last five years, the average loan amount has also increased. People might say, Well, gee, why is that? On average, the loan amount has increased over 24 per cent to $12,531 per household. We have discussed that many times before in the House when we are discussing construction, the impact of inflation, the impacts of the pandemic on supply chains, and other consequences there. There has been a rise in costs of materials and labour. As of last year, to date we have assisted 1,971 households. If we were to do quick math - my calculator went - 70 per cent of that is a lot of seniors we are helping, and we will continue to invest in this program here.

 

With rent supps, one of the tools in the housing toolbox that is important for Nova Scotians is that we've actually - part of our review of our policies across the board has been to look at actually increasing and broadening the program for seniors. Before, it was up to 95 per cent of the rent up to average market rent, and now it is 100 per cent of the rent up to average market rent.

 

We know that there is so much more to do. I am happy with the work of the department. It is a real privilege to be here, with staff in the Gallery of course, to help answer some of these very important questions. These are dedicated public servants who have put a lot of work into this action plan and believe it. They are excited to see the results, and excited to see when we have a CMHC report coming out that is talking about increasing supply, increasing vacancy rates, rent stabilization.

 

We have Statistics Canada saying that year over year, our housing stocks have gone up 38 per cent. That's like, even though the work's not done, it's a really positive sign that the hard work they've been putting in for years now is paying off. I want to extend my appreciation to them for their efforts on this. It is across government too. When we talk about building homes, it's also building the secondary infrastructure, if you will.

 

The Minister of Municipal Affairs spoke about water and sewer upgrades, and that through a capital investment program, municipalities could tap in to do necessary upgrades to those services, expand those services, and create more space for Nova Scotians to build more homes in those respective communities. We know transportation is an issue across this province, especially here in the city. There are some good times and bad times to enter and exit the city, but that is work that is important to get people and goods across the province in a safe and timely manner. That is work that is done across government, led through the Department of Public Works, and partnerships with municipalities to get that done.

 

We know that the work will continue. There are historic investments in this year's budget to support that work. I think it is one thing to talk about numbers and figures - and we've done a lot of that over the last couple of days - but by golly, I think it is going to be hard. That's a direct quote from the Minister of Natural Resources. You can check Hansard, by golly. It would be tough to not support a budget that has investments to continue progress that we are seeing - not just in the progress report that I announced last week but also reports that are published by other entities. I'm not talking Rentals.ca either. I'm talking about the CMHC and Statistics Canada.

 

We are truly on the same page and believe in building more supply, building more housing, increasing the vacancy rate, and ultimately stabilizing rents, and perhaps decreasing rents and seeing rents start to come down. We see on some of these websites - not to be named anymore moving forward - some of these units may be on there for a long time and for obvious reasons. Sometimes they are priced too high, and if the rent is too high, they are not going to get off the market.

 

We believe in a free market. We believe in partnerships and collaboration with private developers. We believe in partnerships and collaboration with our community housing. We are starting to hear a different narrative out there. We are hearing about landlords offering incentives for new tenants to come in. Whoa, hold your horses. If units aren't coming off these websites that quick and landlords have to pivot to a different strategy to get tenants - and we are talking about incentives - I think we are having a positive discussion.

 

With that, I know that on the affordability piece, there is still some work to be done, but I am a believer in the free market - that we can get to a spot where our vacancy rate is healthier. It is getting healthier. We were at 1.1 per cent; we are at 2 per cent - and that is impressive. I know it takes time to build, and it takes time to do things, but we are moving as fast as we can. We will continue that work. Again, like I said, not my words; it was in the CMHC report that was parcelled off, and a section of it was used for a story. I took my time to correct the record there, but that report - yes, there are some areas of improvement, but there are also some good things.

 

I hope that it would be highlighted, not just on the floor of the Legislature, but would also be highlighted, perhaps in a media story. When we are talking about increased supply, increased vacancy, rent stabilization, this is positive. We will not back down. The commitment of this government to address this housing situation across the board will continue under my watch and as long as we are in power. I know that we're not going to be here forever, but I hope that the dedication - the determination to get it right and to address the housing supply in this province - will continue under our future government. There are still a few years before that happens.

 

You know . . . (Interruption)

 

THE CHAIR: Order. The minister has the floor, and he will finish speaking. I will recognize you when he is finished.

 

The honourable Minister of Growth and Development.

 

COLTON LEBLANC: Part of the housing is across the board. We as a government do some building. I've been proudly speaking of the public housing initiatives. Yes, I acknowledge they take time, but I will remind all members of this House that this is the first government to invest in new public housing in 30 years. The need for public housing did not start on August 17, 2021 - I think it was the 17^th. It started a long time before that. The need for more rent supplements did not start in August 2021. It started a long time before that.

 

If you look at our track record, I'd say it's pretty good. We recognize that there is more work to be done, but we have that will. We know that housing means so much to people, and we know that it is central for people to not only succeed in life - but again, I go back to some of my opening comments about that direct correlation with the economy. There are people who struggle to access housing, who always have that in the back of their minds, who don't know if they can make their next rent payment. There is help there. We made some changes to programs, and we will continue to make different program changes.

 

I know there are some differences of opinion on the housing market, and there is a belief there that a rent-control regime will fix the housing stock and housing market, but I don't agree with that. We believe that the free market and investment from government, investment from partners, and collaboration with partners will get us to that spot. It's easy for me to look back and say, Well, if only a number of years ago another government would have done this. The fact is that it's too easy to do that, and I am not that type of man.

 

The reality is that we are dealing with a situation today. All ministers are dealing with situations of today. Our government is dealing with the situations of today, and we will continue to move forward on these initiatives. We will invest in Nova Scotians. Housing for me - we will continue with those investments.

 

If only we had a magic wand to make things happen faster. It's not that easy, and I recognize that we need to do things faster. My commitment, the commitment of this government, is to do everything that we can to go faster. We've cut the red tape. We're sharpening the scissors again. We are going to cut more red tape. We are working with our post-secondary institutions to look at getting our skills and getting our skilled workforce.

 

[7:15 p.m.]

 

I was listening to the news this morning as I was getting ready for work, and I heard a very interesting story. Down home in Tusket at my old high school, they built a skilled trades centre. There are a number of skilled trades centres across the province. Government has worked with communities and asked: What kind of skilled trades centre will work best in your community? Some it may be culinary arts. The one down home is skilled trades. The one in my constituency is skilled trades. It is introducing our next generation to the opportunity of joining the skilled trades.

 

I know that the Chair has a strong passion for skilled trades. We need skilled trades people in our workforce to build this housing - whether it is modular or whatever the style may be - to build our roads, to build our schools, to build everything that is in the $2.3 billion capital plan. Moreover, I had the opportunity to go to the grand opening - time is flying by - a couple of years ago let's say, and students get to build pretty much a tiny home. It's based on one tiny bedroom - hotel size, where they learn to weld, they learn to plumb on the construction side, on the electrical side. But then my understanding, if my memory serves me correctly, is that at the end of the semester, they tear down their project.

 

I guess it is nice to know how to build things, but it is also important to know - there is probably value in that, to take things apart for future repairs down the road. Then they're actually introduced into co-op opportunities with businesses, with trades organizations, our trade companies, construction companies in the constituency. I'm tying it back to the stories that, in fact, in the Annapolis Valley, they are building homes. The students themselves are building homes that are actually going into the housing market. I think that is very impressive. I believe the homes are going into the Windsor area. Kudos to them. That speaks volumes that grassroots and the next generation can have a positive impact on this.

 

Chair, I am wondering how much time I have left.

 

THE CHAIR: Thirty-five seconds.

 

COLTON LEBLANC: With that, I am going to move resolution . . . (Interruption)

 

THE CHAIR: Order. The Minister of Growth and Development has the floor.

 

COLTON LEBLANC: I apologize. I thought we were - time was ticking away. I will read my resolution after.

 

I know that those students there are having a positive impact on housing in the province, and I want to thank them and their teachers for moving forward on this effort.

 

THE CHAIR: Order. The time for the NDP questioning has come to an end. I don't see the Liberal caucus.

 

The honourable member for Halifax Atlantic.

 

HON. BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I want to thank the minister for a very detailed response. My question is around public housing and the investment in public housing. I know that the minister had mentioned that already. I am just wondering: There is an investment in building new, but are we also looking at fixing and renovating the stock that we already have?

 

HON. COLTON LEBLANC: I appreciate the question. This is an important one because again, every unit matters. The average age of our public housing buildings is over 40 years, and it has been discussed before that with aging infrastructure, we need to do those upgrades.

 

In fiscal 2024-25, we've committed $48.1 million to undertake 924 projects in 733 buildings, and that is for preservation and maintaining the existing public housing stock. Then, as of March of last year, we invested $14 million to create 51 barrier-free and complete accessibility upgrades to an additional 165 units to meet accessibility targets established in the bilateral agreement . Then, over the next three years, we will invest a total of $30 million. That is $21 million from the Province and $9 million from the feds, under the Affordable Housing Fund, to support efficiency upgrades to an additional 900 units by the end of December 2026. Of those, 180 will also receive accessibility upgrades.

 

BRENDAN MAGUIRE: I will cede my time to the NDP.

 

THE CHAIR: The honourable member for Halifax Needham.

 

SUZY HANSEN: Thank you to the member for Halifax Atlantic. I truly appreciate it. I have some interesting questions that I really wanted to get forward, and it was unfortunate that the minister filibustered the majority of the questions and evaded the questions that Nova Scotians wanted answers to. I have a ton of questions that I would love to hear from the minister on. One of them actually was something that was given to me by CBRM. There was a survey: 64 per cent of respondents are renting from the secondary market that is not purposely built for renting, which was omitted from the CMHC official numbers in CBRM.

 

I spoke about CMHC's numbers yesterday, and I got a lengthy answer from the minister then as well. It is creating many issues for residents, including making them ineligible for rent supplements and downplaying the cost of rent in the CBRM. Two-thirds of respondents say that they could not easily find alternative housing if they lost their homes, and many of them who are suffering from poor housing conditions stated that they are afraid to report concerns for evictions.

 

There was a report done, and I have the report. It was already tabled here in the House in September 2024, but that was just one account of the CMHC information that doesn't reflect all of Nova Scotia. So I wanted to make sure that was on the table because, as we've been hearing from the minister about the multiple investments, which are absolutely amazing - we need investments to be able to help our province grow and continue to do the things that we need to do - it was just really strange that I am asking questions about seniors' housing. I am asking about how many investments or how many programs are available for seniors, and I hear a number of other things that come forward.

 

Back to the announcement question. I was saying that we have all these announcements, and yet the numbers don't reflect the announcement. The minister gave an analogy about something, and in my head, I was thinking, No one says that they win the race if they haven't run it yet. That is what we hear when we hear announcements consistently.

 

I have a number of things that I wanted to talk about. When we talk about core housing, we talk about housing that's a necessity. We talk about housing as a human right. As the NDP, that is what we consider, because as the minister had spoken to previously, housing is health care; housing is education - housing is all of these factors when it comes down to the importance of everyday life here in Nova Scotia.

 

I know the answer to this question because I have asked it, and the minister has answered it multiple times through many different facets. So we know that there is a demand for public housing in the light of the increasing costs of market housing. We understand that is what's happening. We understand that there are a number of announcements with the increased numbers that they are going to be building - 273 public housing units - but out of those, 40 are available now for families.

 

We've heard about the Community Housing Acquisition Program to help community housing providers preserve and expand the supply of affordable housing, but we didn't hear about how many affordable units were supported through this program. We didn't hear what the average rent of these units is. We didn't hear that the majority of the units that were supported through the CHAP are single-room units. So I was thinking: Are they by design or are they by coincidence? Because we need to expand the program. We need to make sure that there are large units - two- to three-bedroom units - for these folks.

 

I am curious to know whether or not the CHAP is going to be producing affordable units for families, and what other programs in the department are there? Is the department producing two- or three-plus-bedroom units that offer housing for lower-income families so that they can afford that?

 

I wanted to also talk about the Trusted Partner Program. We want to know if it has been launched yet. How many developers and builders have had access to this approval process? There are a number of questions that I have that Nova Scotians have sent and have asked me to ask specifically to the minister. We know that there was a report prepared for the Trusted Partner Program, and at that time, it was going to save time by reducing public engagement. We wanted to know what the reduced public engagement process was. Well, through the minister's discussions, I know that they like to save time, cut red tape, and do all of these things, so it is really important for us to know these things when the minister is answering questions that are put forward by the members.

 

I say this because, as a member, I've been the spokesperson for housing. This has been almost my fourth year. I was elected in 2021. It is my fourth year as the spokesperson for housing, so I am not a stranger to the acronyms and the programs and the things that are happening. Based on the plan, when I asked previously about the housing plan, I knew that there were these programs there. Based on what the minister had said for the multiple hours that we've been here, I've heard a number of investments, which is great because we hear the announcements all the time. I've heard the amount of money year by year that has been invested into this province, but we don't actually see a lot of the things that they said they are going to do fast and on time or produce for folks to be able to see the fruits of that labour.

 

I know that it does take time. I do understand that. I mentioned this to the minister yesterday when we spoke about how we know there is a skilled trades shortage. We know that there are a number of things at play that factor into this, but at the same time, we can't continue to say that these things are happening when they are not. Announcements can't be made about 273 units when 40 of them are online. That doesn't actually give a snapshot of the picture that Nova Scotians want to see when they hear these announcements.

 

Back to my questioning. I wanted to say that one of the guiding principles in this government's five-year housing plan outlines the importance of ensuring African Nova Scotians have access to appropriate and adequate housing, and I did hear the minister speak about African Nova Scotian opportunities for housing. You know, I don't know if the minister knows this - I know this - but across Nova Scotia, the rate of core housing need is nearly double for Black Nova Scotians.

 

I want to hear from the minister about where in the budget the government is investing to improve housing outcomes for Black Nova Scotians. I know the African Nova Scotian Road to Economic Prosperity has reports of this, and they've spoken to this, and I know that they brought this forward to this government. We want to know how the minister is measuring success on the goal to improve African Nova Scotians' access to adequate housing. Are there specific metrics to measure? Because we know that with anything that we do, there should be a metric that we measure to see how well or how much more improvement we need to be doing in order to do that work.

 

[7:30 p.m.]

 

I think about the overall assessment that is being undertaken. Does the minister know roughly how many affordable units are being created that will benefit Black Nova Scotian households? I didn't hear a program that was specific to Black Nova Scotian households. I heard about a grant and I've heard about funding available, but I never heard about affordable units specific for Black Nova Scotians.

 

My other questions were about the Home Sharing Program. We heard multiple times in the last session about Happipad. I was just wondering how much was spent on Happipad in this last fiscal year. How many Happipad contracts were signed in the last fiscal year? Is the department looking into why this program did not perform better? Like I said, metrics - measuring success. Is there an assessment being done? Are there any internal reports documented? What worked and what didn't work with the efforts to boost home sharing? What are the average rent costs of the leases because this stuff was all online.

 

I actually went on Happipad for one of my constituents because they themselves were actually looking for a place to live - a place in HRM. I am telling you, I had to call the number, which transferred me to B.C., which gave me a whole different perspective of the cost prices that were not what was actually Nova Scotian. It was really interesting for me to do that test call to find out that Happipad was not specifically here in Nova Scotia. I would just like to know: How is that? How did it work? What were the average rents costs as in the leases? How many leases were signed? Were the leases above or below the average market rent? Is the government looking into a longer-term contract with Happipad? Are there any other home-sharing companies that we might have to look forward to being put forward by this government?

 

These are all really important questions that Nova Scotians have actually wanted to know about. I say this because as an MLA for Halifax Needham, I know people know I take my job very seriously and I love my riding. I am telling you, any time somebody sends me a message, I will ask that question.

 

One of my thoughts is - people ask me all the time: How come you don't know this information? I reach out to the department or I reach out to folks and staff, and how do you not know these things? You would think that we would have our finger on the pulse and have a better connection when it comes to gaining information, or else I wouldn't have to ask 50 to 60 questions to the minister on a budget, based on the one line that I see in the budget plan.

 

I think about the importance of making sure that the information is robust and it is actually accurate, and it's the information that Nova Scotians are asking. This is really important for us. This is why the budget session - I take it really seriously when we talk about line-by-line going through what the budget is. You have a whole number of staff who are in the Gallery who are doing amazing work. We have access to the information right at your fingertips. Yet here I am having to put all of my questions, or a majority of them, in my ten-minutes that was deferred to me by the member to be able to make sure that these questions are on the docket because this is what Nova Scotians expect of me during the budget session.

 

I say this not because I want to be difficult. I said yesterday that I am not here to be difficult. I'm not here to make it look like this is what it is and this is what it isn't. What I'm here for is asking specific questions so I know the information. If you've watched me while I've been sitting here, I take notes. I take notes so I can refer these notes back to the people who have sent me these questions. Like I said to you earlier, I take my job very seriously. So when we are sitting here and we have everybody at our fingertips who can answer the questions that we have put forward or even deferred and hear: Oh, I'll get that for you later or I'll table it at another time, to me, that is very important because not any other time am I able to get this information through any other access point.

 

I say this with true respect and true humble work that I do here - that when we are here to do the business of the people, we should be doing just that. I understand I like to talk, but when I have questions that I have to have answered, I would really like to at least have a try. Thank you, Chair.

 

THE CHAIR: Order. The time allotted for considerations in Supply today has elapsed.

 

The honourable Deputy Government House Leader.

 

MELISSA SHEEHY-RICHARD: Chair, I move that the Committee do now rise and report progress and beg leave to sit again on a future day.

 

THE CHAIR: The motion is carried.

 

The Committee will now rise and report its business to the House.

 

[The committee adjourned at 7:34 p.m.]