HALIFAX, MONDAY, MARCH 3, 2025

 

COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON SUPPLY

 

4:27 P.M.

 

CHAIR

John White

 

 

THE CHAIR: Order. The Committee of Whole House on Supply will come to order. It is now 4:27 p.m. The committee must rise to report to the House before the hour of adjournment, which today is 10:00 p.m.

 

The honourable Deputy Government House Leader.

 

MELISSA SHEEHY-RICHARD: Chair, would you please call the Estimates for the Minister of Growth and Development, Resolution E12.

 

Resolution E12 - Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $400,214,000 be granted to the Lieutenant Governor to defray expenses in respect of the Department of Growth and Development, pursuant to the Estimate.

 

THE CHAIR: I would now like to invite the Minister of Growth and Development to make opening comments up to an hour and to introduce his staff.

 

The honourable Minister of Growth and Development.

 

HON. COLTON LEBLANC: I'm pleased to have the opportunity to introduce the Estimates for the Department of Growth and Development for 2025-2026.

 

Joining me are Executive Deputy Minister Kelliann Dean to my left and Associate Deputy Minister Vicki Elliott-Lopez to my right. I also have a number of other staff joining us here today in the West Gallery, including Adam Rainforth and Wanda Fletcher, who are both executive directors of finance. This group, among others, is here today to ensure I'm best equipped to answer questions.

 

It has been more than two months since the new Department of Growth and Development has come together. I'm pleased to say we are well positioned to leverage our resources to develop solutions that will help keep people housed affordably so communities across our province can prosper and to continue to invest in the sectors and businesses that create jobs and opportunities for Nova Scotians.

 

This budget builds on our investments over the past three years, aimed at increasing and improving housing stock, reducing barriers, speeding up development, and getting more people and families into safe and affordable housing faster. This budget also has a strong focus on supporting and investing in business to ensure they have the tools and the support to innovate, increase productivity, and promote here at home and across the globe.

 

In the face of economic uncertainty, this department's commitment to Nova Scotia Loyal is more important than ever before. As Nova Scotians, we need to look for every opportunity to choose local, and this budget provides the resources to do just that.

 

[4:30 p.m.]

 

It will help us ramp up our efforts to support farmers, growers, crafters, builders, manufacturers, and producers at a time when they need us the most and deliver a call to action to be Nova Scotia Loyal.

 

This budget contains investments to ensure our economy is strong and we seize every opportunity for economic growth and prosperity in our province. I'm pleased to share the following highlights in our plans for the next year.

 

Let me begin with some key numbers. The total budget for the Department of Growth and Development is estimated to be $400 million for fiscal 2025-26. This is an estimated $30 million increase compared to fiscal 2024-25.

 

Housing figures for this budget include $6.9 million more for the Secondary and Backyard Suite Incentive Program pilot, for a total program budget of $10.4 million in 2025-26; $6 million more for rent supplements, for a total program budget of $73.9 million for 2025-26; $5 million more for post-secondary student housing, for a total program budget of $10 million; and $600,000 for one-time funding for short-term rental compliance.

 

For the Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency, we're seeing a $9 million increase to maintain the agency's infrastructure, for a total investment of $29.6 million for 2025-26; a $5 million increase for the agency's maintenance and operational pressures; a $4.8 million investment in 2025-26 to implement a standard rent-geared-to-income rental model; and a $5.4 million investment in 2025-26 for a service exchange agreement with Halifax Regional Municipality to offset changes to the municipal contributions to public housing.

 

This budget also includes $136.4 million in TCA funding being committed to build an additional 242 new public housing units over the coming years, as well as 273 new units announced in previous years, which are already under way.

 

The increase in 2025-26 related to growing our economy includes $10.9 million for the Nova Scotia Jobs Fund, for a total of $20.9 million in 2025-26, and $6.5 million for the Nova Scotia Loyal program, for a total program budget of $8 million in 2025-26.

We need to continue to create economic opportunity, encourage entrepreneurship, and strengthen our economy. We know we are in uncertain times. The threats of tariffs from the United States are concerning, and we know our businesses and producers are worried. Nova Scotians are looking to our government for leadership and solutions, and I want Nova Scotians to know we are taking action.

 

Our Premier's leadership is crystal clear. He has advocated for Nova Scotians in Washington, met with federal and provincial colleagues as part of Team Canada, and was prepared to take retaliatory action when tariffs were first announced. We are ready to support our businesses, our producers, and all Nova Scotians.

 

We have strong relationships and partnerships with key partners that work with businesses every day, including groups like the regional enterprise networks, and partners in the innovation ecosystem, like Volta, IGNITE Atlantic, the Black Business Initiative, and Futurpreneur. Through these partnerships, we understand the needs of our start-ups, our entrepreneurs, and our businesses, big and small. We've built our programs with the needs of businesses and producers in mind, and because of that, we are well positioned to navigate whatever comes our way.

 

The key part of our work is collaborating with our government colleagues, post-secondary institutions, the business community, and the regional enterprise networks. We partner with others to find innovative solutions to our economic challenges and opportunities. Our Crown corporations, like Events East and Invest Nova Scotia, have an important role in delivering the government's economic priorities.

 

The Events East team focuses on events of all sizes that drive economic growth, showcase Nova Scotia products, and bring vibrancy to this province.

 

Invest Nova Scotia offers programs and services to assist businesses from across Nova Scotia and at every stage of development, from starting up and raising capital, to incubation and acceleration, to export development and investment attraction. Through a collaborative approach and strong relationships, my department, Invest Nova Scotia, and our partners are building networks to support the business community no matter what size or business sector.

 

Together we are focused on creating conditions for businesses to thrive and an economy in which all Nova Scotians can participate and benefit. We are making progress, and we are building momentum in delivering positive results for Nova Scotians.

 

When we first got word of the potential tariffs, we worked directly with our partners at the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs to meet with businesses and sector representatives to learn more about what we could do to support our businesses. IGA has met with more than 125 businesses. The Premier and I have met with a number of chambers of commerce and RENs. We launched a tariff survey, with over 170 responses. I'll remind members that we were the first province to announce retaliatory measures. The work we have accomplished with Nova Scotia Loyal over the past year, identifying and promoting local producers and products, is even more important now than ever before.

 

There's one thing tariffs can't do; they can't stop us from supporting local. That is how we protect our economy and our future, and we can do it together. Our government is making it easier than ever before to buy local and sell local products with our Nova Scotia Loyal program. That is why, in Budget 2025-2026, you'll see a total budget of $8 million this year.

 

I'm confident Nova Scotia Loyal will do what it is intended to do: instill Nova Scotia pride and support a shift in demand in consumption of locally grown, harvested, crafted, and manufactured Nova Scotia products. Over the last year, a tremendous amount of work has gone into developing our Nova Scotia Loyal program, and we have no intention of slowly down. Nova Scotia Loyal is no longer just a program; it is a movement that Nova Scotians want to support. They want to support local, and we want to make it easier for them to do just that.

 

On that note, we've hit the ground running. Our brand ambassadors have been at events across the province promoting local products, and the response we've seen has been overwhelming. In the last four weeks alone, we've seen the number of businesses that have registered on our website to become Nova Scotia Loyal increase by five times. Last month, I had the privilege of visiting one of our local retailers here in Halifax, Inkwell Modern Handmade. They were excited to welcome me and my team to their business to help distribute Nova Scotia Loyal stickers and other labelling in their store, and to help make it easier for their customers to identify Nova Scotia products.

 

When I was home this weekend, I stopped by one of my favourite stores, Carl's Store. I spoke about them last week during Question Period. They are one of the newest smaller retailers to join the movement. It's nice to see all kinds of stickers and marketing collateral in that store. For members and Nova Scotians who haven't had the chance to see it, they should check out the Nova Scotia Loyal Facebook and Instagram pages to see a little vignette on Carl's Store.

 

We want to help all local businesses get their products into the hands of consumers and in the doors of large retailers. We've made some great strides. For example, in June of last year, the Department of Growth and Development announced a partnership with the Farmers' Markets of Nova Scotia Cooperative, providing over 135,000 vouchers to public school, home-school, and (inaudible) students in Nova Scotia to experience shopping local products at participating farmers' market locations.

 

Additionally, Nova Scotia Loyal includes a procurement policy - a government procurement policy - that will ensure local businesses get a 10 per cent advantage when competing for public sector contracts below the free trade thresholds, and government will lead by example when purchasing goods, services, and construction. Most recently, as part of the Forest Nova Scotia AGM, the Minister of Natural Resources announced that all forestry products will now be part of the Nova Scotia Loyal program - a good minister. That's right - great minister.

 

One of our Nova Scotia Loyal partners, Cynthia from Axe to Grind Foods, had this to say about our program:

 

Nova Scotia Loyal isn't just another buy-local campaign. It's a game changer for small businesses like mine and countless others across the province.

 

Through this initiative, I as a shopper have discovered incredible local makers, craftspeople, and food producers whose products I might have otherwise missed.

 

As a manufacturer of spice blends, drink rimmers, and popcorn toppings, I've directly benefitted from the program. Customers who first try my products using Nova Scotia Loyal vouchers have since become loyal repeat buyers, proving that this program drives real lasting impact.

 

What sets Nova Scotia Loyal apart is its investment in connecting customers to local products in meaningful ways, and this program's evolution from event market vouchers to school and university outreach ensures that the next generation of Nova Scotians values and supports homegrown businesses.

 

I want to thank Cynthia for joining last week's announcement as we announced across the street the next element of Nova Scotia Loyal, our label program for producers.

 

John Ernst from Terra Beata Farms said, “The Nova Scotia Loyal program is a great step forward for the provincial economy. We were excited to have the opportunity to get involved supporting Nova Scotia's institutional procurement, and it has made a meaningful, positive impact on our business.”

 

These are real testimonials from real producers and real business owners in our communities. They're not my words. We know Nova Scotia Loyal is having a real impact on our local producers, and we will continue to work with them to promote supporting local in Nova Scotia.

 

In addition to supporting our local producers and businesses through Nova Scotia Loyal, our partners at Invest Nova Scotia are helping businesses become more productive and competitive through programs like the Innovation Rebate Program.

 

Payzant Structural Solutions Limited currently specializes in the manufacturing of trusses for single family, multi-residential, and commercial clients. The company is undergoing a process facility expansion, which will include the construction of a new building and purchase of several new pieces of capital equipment to expand its production line. Payzant Structural Solutions Limited will be proceeding with $6.39 million in capital investments to improve efficiencies and enable manufacturing of prefabricated wall panels and floor cassettes.

 

The company expects the addition of two new saws will increase production capacity by allowing more optimal cutting processes. The purchase of additional tilt tables and Virtek lasers is also anticipated to reduce reliance on manual measuring techniques and increase the company's efficiencies by 15 to 20 per cent. In addition, upgraded software is expected to reduce overall raw materials waste through the optimization of lumber selection and improved cutting processes. Through this expansion, the company expects to reduce the build times of its products and therefore improve wait times and increase development of housing in Nova Scotia faster.

 

Another program that has been key to helping Nova Scotia businesses increase sales outside Nova Scotia, improve competitiveness, and positively impact the economy is the Export Development Program, or the EDP, as we call it.

 

[4:45 p.m.]

 

This program provides financial incentives to help offset the costs of projects that assist in overcoming barriers to export growth for Nova Scotia businesses. This program supports companies travelling to meet a client, partner, or investor or looking to invite a foreign client or partner to visit their Nova Scotia business. It can also help mitigate costs of trade shows, conferences, or costs of hiring a consultant or service provider.

 

As of January this year, Invest Nova Scotia has approved 927 EDP applications for 1,258 projects for fiscal 2024-25. With the increasing tariff threats from the United States driving a need for market diversification, this program could be utilized to support businesses impacted by tariffs.

 

Supporting our businesses from start-up through scale up remains a priority of this government. To that end, we've signed multi-year funding agreements with Volta, Ignite Labs, Propel ICT, Futurpreneur, CDL-Atlantic, the Black Business Initiative, and Emera ideaHUB. This long-term funding reinforces our shared priorities in supporting founders and their teams, creating jobs, and strengthening the economic landscape of Nova Scotia.

 

A great example of this work is Katchi Technologies, a start-up from a home in Yarmouth. Katchi is developing their SmartNet technology and uncrewed service vessels, USVs, to enhance the efficiency and sustainability of trawl fishing and aiming to improve profitability for fishers while protecting marine ecosystems.

 

Part of IGNITE Atlantic's residency program, Katchi has benefited from access to resources, mentorship, and space to grow their start-up. My department supports IGNITE through a funding partnership totalling $1.65 million allocated at $550,000 per year over three years. This funding enables IGNITE to assist companies like Katchi in their growth and development.

 

Katchi received $500,000 U.S. from Schmidt Marine Technology Partners for their innovative fishing technology designed to reduce environmental impact.

 

To make a long story short, we're bringing more businesses to Nova Scotia, building a globally competitive, skilled workforce, and creating new jobs with higher wages. We're promoting our local businesses and making it easier for Nova Scotians to support businesses here at home. We're making our businesses more productive by helping them diversify and enhance their export capabilities, and we are supporting our start-ups and our entrepreneurs. Our work has just begun.

 

Now I want to turn my attention to a foundational area of my department: housing. When our government created the Department of Growth and Development, some people questioned how the economy and housing fit together. Even some in this Chamber have alluded or insinuated that there was no Department of Housing, which is false. Some members of the Opposition refer to me as the Minister responsible for Housing, so I don't understand how they can say there's no Department of Housing when they refer to me as the Minister of Housing. Anyway, I digress.

 

Let me explain how economy and housing fit together. Our economy is gaining momentum. A prosperous and sustainable economy allows us to pay for things like housing, infrastructure, health care, and education. Growing our skilled workforce, population, and economy is making a difference in the province's finances. The investments we are making in my department are part of the government's plan for a sustainable, prosperous economic future for Nova Scotia.

 

Housing is a key piece of that puzzle. We know building more housing helps Nova Scotians and supports a strong economy by creating good paying jobs, and a safe home gives individuals and families the comfort and security they need to work, study, attend school, and thrive. An affordable home means people have more money in their pockets for the basics like groceries, recreation, and transportation, and they have more money to spend in their businesses and to help contribute to our economy.

 

Housing impacts so many things: our education, our health care, and our overall well-being. Right now, we need more housing faster. We need more supply, we need more people to build, and we need more collaboration. As a government, with staff and as a team, we've made groundbreaking investments and advancements in how we manage the housing file, with the Nova Scotians we serve at the centre of everything we do.

 

There is an immense pressure on housing right across our nation. We are no different here in Nova Scotia. The need for more housing is urgent, and this government understands that urgency. We want Nova Scotians to know that we are committed to the hard work and bold action it takes to address it head on. The Premier has been clear; we need to continue to do more for Nova Scotians. We need to do it faster, and I couldn't agree any more.

 

This budget, the accompanying forecast, and the capital plan show our commitment to making the investments needed to address our province's housing challenges head on and support strong and growing communities. A couple weeks ago, during the capital plan announcement, I announced the largest ever single investment in new public housing, with the addition of 242 new public housing units. The units are in addition to the 273, including 222 housing units and 51 modulars, announced in the last 18 months.

 

That brings the total number of new public housing units planned, completed, to be completed, or under construction to 515, marking the largest investment in public housing in 30 years. We know that building more housing is a key part of addressing the housing needs of our communities, and our government is investing in working quickly to get more Nova Scotians into homes faster. Two hundred forty-two new units represents an investment of $136.4 million, the province's largest ever investment in new public housing.

 

I'll elaborate on the work of our provincial housing agency in a moment, as they are a key part in addressing housing challenges, and their work is making a significant difference. We know that the solution to our housing challenge is more homes, as I've said many times so far today. I'm sure I will say it a few more times later on, and I've said it many times in this Chamber before. We know affordability improves when supply does and we are collaborating and investing differently to get more housing built.

 

For the first time, our government has undertaken the effort to create a strong, clear housing plan. Our plan entitled Our Homes, Action for Housing is supported by solid data and a historic investment of $1.7 billion over five years. The housing plan brings together partners to help address the gap identified in the housing supply, grow and sustain affordable housing, and deliver programs Nova Scotians need.

 

It's working. In the first 18 months alone, our housing plan is meeting or exceeding all targets and is getting more people in housing faster. In fact, we've surpassed our five-year goal already, with the path cleared for the creation of an additional 51,352 housing units. That is 125 per cent of the 2028 goal. The proof is undeniable. Our approach is working. We saw a 30 per cent increase in housing starts in the first nine months of 2024, and our rental market is stabilizing, with a vacancy rate increased to 2 per cent.

 

Let me share some more key achievements. In the first 18 months, affordability has been improved for 16,200 households; 17,250 households is the five-year goal. Development fees have been frozen in the Halifax Regional Municipality, and the provincial portion of the HST has been cut for construction of new rentals. Construction conditions have been improved for 38,844 households, and our five-year goal is 47,900.

 

Six hundred sixty-three first-time homebuyers were supported through the Down Payment Assistance Program. Three hundred thirty-five publicly owned affordable housing units have been upgraded. Our goal is to upgrade 900 by 2028. Work has enabled 3,517 affordable and supportive housing units.

 

Other highlights include 4,608 Nova Scotians helped through home repair programs, many of them seniors. Over 12,000 households were supported by a rent supplement. Over 300 secondary and backyard units are in the works, creating affordable housing for hundreds of people. Seven new Nova Scotia Community College student residences will allow 600 more students to access on-campus homes, freeing up housing for others who need it. In addition, investments in the community housing sector have increased tenfold, with over $120 million invested in the last two years alone.

 

These critical partners, who are some of the best landlords in the province, have been able to preserve, plan, or build over 1,400 affordable units in that two-year time frame, keeping affordable housing in their communities. We know it takes time to increase building supply and that people and families need help now.

 

Rent supplements help make life more affordable for Nova Scotians and that's why in this budget we are increasing our investment for the fourth consecutive year. As I mentioned before, in this year's budget we have earmarked $6 million more for rent supplements and that brings our total program budget to $73.9 million for 2025-2026.

 

The year my government took office, approximately 3,000 Nova Scotians were in receipt of a rent supplement, but that wasn't nearly enough. People were struggling and we understood more Nova Scotians need our help, and guess what? We acted. Now with our increased investment we will ensure 8,500 rent supplements will continue to be delivered in the program enhancements and efficiencies. We will be able to support an additional 400 supplements this year.

 

That is almost 6,000 more households helped by our investment in just under four years, including our most vulnerable Nova Scotians, like seniors and those fleeing domestic violence. We know this program is making a difference. We've heard testimonials from real clients who have called this program life saving. There are several examples of the solutions we're working on to enhance our housing options. We have a mix, and there are many, many more.

 

For example, last year we created the Secondary and Backyard Suite Incentive Program, and this program is a partnership with homeowners to create more housing faster. The program will provide up to $40,000 in forgivable loans to eligible homeowners who create a secondary or backyard suite in their home or on their property for affordable rentals or to support intergenerational support for senior family members. We know that secondary or backyard suites are a proven way to get housing stock built faster and also contribute to things like rental income for the owner of supportive housing for an elderly family member or a person with a disability or freeing up housing in other areas.

 

We know that to truly address the housing challenges in our province we need more units, and we need them fast and we know it can be expensive to build a suite. This program helps homeowners with some of the costs while creating hundreds of units for our most vulnerable Nova Scotians. That's why, in this budget, we are investing $6.9 million more in the program for a total budget of $10.4 million. This program is working with applications approved for over 300 units, with 35 completed already. I'm very excited to see this program continue to grow and I'm looking forward to seeing hundreds of more people move into a suite soon.

 

One of those people is Darren MacLeod from right here in the central region. He accessed the program to build a suite for his daughter and grandson and says the project would have been impossible without this help. I could talk all day about the housing programs in the department, but they are truly making a difference.

 

Before I conclude, I'd like to turn my attention to another critical piece of the housing spectrum in my department and that is public housing and the Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency. As a government, we owe it to all Nova Scotians to ensure that we are managing our public housing units efficiently and effectively. When our government took office, it was clear that this important file had been neglected for many years. In response, we got to work, we rolled up our sleeves, and we made crucial changes to the way we serve public housing tenants and applicants.

 

[5:00 p.m.]

 

One of the key steps was the creation of the Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency. The Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency was created on December 1, 2022 to improve the oversight and management of government-owned public housing. Now in its third year of operation the agency manages over 12,200 public housing units across Nova Scotia that are home to over 20,000 tenants.

 

With these numbers, Nova Scotia has more public housing stock per capita than most provinces in the country to meet the needs of low-income Nova Scotians. We know Nova Scotians need more affordable housing options, so our government continues to take action and invest in new public housing to get more Nova Scotians into affordable and accessible homes, as I mentioned.

 

I have already touched on the ground-breaking announcement made a few weeks ago on the additional 242 units as part of the capital plan. Where those units will go will be determined by areas of greatest need. The agency has already gotten to work to help inform those decisions.

 

If I could, I would like to provide a brief update on the 222 units announced last year and the progress being made. Two hundred twenty-two units in multi-storey buildings are being constructed in Lower Sackville, Halifax, Cape Breton, Bridgewater, Kentville, and Truro. There are buildings in your constituency, Chair - Glace Bay. Those in Lower Sackville and Kentville are expected to be completed by Summer and Fall 2025. Bring on Summer. The remaining buildings are expected to be completed by Summer 2028.

 

Further to that, the 51 single-family and multi-unit modular buildings are being deployed quickly to provide two- and three-bedroom homes for low-income Nova Scotians. Those are located in Glace Bay, Ingonish, Port Hawkesbury, Antigonish, Springhill, Westville, Barrington, Shelburne, Liverpool, Digby, Amherst, and Wedgeport. I sound like I've been everywhere. Thanks to the speed and dependability of modular construction, 24 of the 51 modular homes are already occupied. The rest are expected to be completed by Summer this year. We're focused on finding quick solutions, and by using modular construction and building on provincially owned or serviced land, we're getting more Nova Scotians into homes faster.

 

We recently heard from a single mom of two who had been on the wait-list since September 2020. She was renting a home that had mould issues and unresolved leaks left over from Hurricane Fiona. When one of our new modular homes became available, it was offered to her. The home is in a safe neighbourhood, close to many schools and amenities. She was incredibly excited to move into her new home before her five-year-old son started school. She told our staff that by moving into this new home, she will be able to improve her family's health and increase opportunities for her children.

 

This is one of many examples of how our investments in new public housing are making a lasting impact for Nova Scotians. I would like to acknowledge that there are many people waiting for our units. We know there is so much more work to do. The agency is getting a lot of people off the wait-list and into units faster by modernizing our policies, improving unit turnaround times, and increasing capacity within our existing portfolio.

 

Applicants are now waiting an average of seven months less than they were in 2022. Every single minute we shave off that wait time makes a difference for a person or a family waiting for housing. We will continue to work to keep decreasing those wait times even further. We know building new is important, but we also know we must protect and preserve every existing unit that we have in our care.

 

For decades, no investment was made in our public housing. Under our watch, that has changed dramatically. We know our infrastructure is aging, and we're planning and investing to preserve and improve our units for our tenants. In this budget we are putting our money where our mouth is with a $9 million increase to maintain the agency's infrastructure for a total investment of $29.6 million for 2025-26 and a $5 million increase for the agency's maintenance and operational pressures. This funding will help ensure our units are safe and comfortable and allow us to make accessibility upgrades where possible to ensure more seniors can age in place and more families with diverse needs can access deeply affordable housing.

 

In addition to all the enhancements and all the investments I have just mentioned, we are also making policy changes to ensure tenants are treated consistently and fairly no matter where they live in the province. Our rental rates are calculated based on household income and who is living in the household. Rent geared to income ensures tenants are never paying more than 30 per cent of their income for rent. Recently we moved all public housing tenants in Nova Scotia to this rent model. We owe it to Nova Scotians - to all Nova Scotians - to ensure our policies are fair, consistent, and reflect the current needs of our applicants and tenants. We do our best to meet their needs.

 

Recently we encountered a situation with a family on our wait-list. The family was in urgent need of more space to accommodate their children, but we had limited options available until the agency staff quickly identified a senior couple occupying a home with multiple bedrooms they did not need. Our staff worked with the couple to help them move into a more suitable unit at a nearby manor where they are closer to essential services and amenities and can participate in more activities. Thanks to the efforts of the NSPHA team, the family was able to move into the home within a few weeks and are thriving in their new environment.

 

This is one example, but there are many more. In fact, the agency's work to address overhousing has given 78 more low-income families a public housing unit that meets their housing needs.

 

Another success story I do want to highlight before I wrap up is the agency's work to provide housing for low-income Nova Scotians fleeing family or intimate partner violence. By working across government, with other government departments and community service providers, the agency has provided priority access to 123 households since 2023. This is extremely meaningful and important work that is literally saving lives.

 

To conclude, I'd like to say how proud I am of the work of my department and the difference the staff is making in the lives of Nova Scotians. Together with our partners, we will build a stronger and more prosperous economy to make sure we continue to provide the support and services Nova Scotians need and deserve.

 

With that, I will be happy to answer questions.

 

THE CHAIR: Thank you, Minister. According to the practice that has developed in this Legislature, the Opposition caucuses take turns asking questions for approximately one hour each. During a caucus's turn, the members within the caucus may take turns examining the minister on the Estimates resolution. Only the minister may answer the questions. Caucuses are also expected to share time fairly with the independent member. To begin the examination, I recognize the Official Opposition.

 

The honourable member for Halifax Needham.

 

SUZY HANSEN: Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Minister and staff who are about to take on the questions. I appreciate the time and effort that will come with that.

 

One of my questions - and the minister kind of answered it in a way, but I was curious, and I can't help but to say what I need to say, because it didn't fit for me. My question is: How does housing fit into the Department of Growth and Development?

 

The minister explained that there has been discussion about how there has been an ask for the minister responsible for housing. Well, that is exactly what it is, because what we're seeing and what we're hearing from folks across the province is that when housing was moved under Growth and Development, it seemed as though it was an economic driver.

 

We know that housing does create money for the economy, and it does build that, and the minister did say the economy is prosperous and pays for health care and education, but we have a Health and Wellness Minister, an Education and Early Childhood Development Minister - departments that are solely for that. That's why I thought it was a bit strange that housing would fall under Growth and Development at a time when housing is the need right now for people. I just wanted to say that. The minister did explain it in a way, but I really feel like the minister also needs to understand that this is what it's being seen as.

 

My first question is: We spoke about the housing plan and the supply, and the minister did speak on that. Under the housing plan, how many units have been completed and how many are currently under construction under the housing plan that this government has?

 

HON. COLTON LEBLANC: Going back quickly to the member's preamble, there is a direct correlation between housing and the economy. Just because a division of government is not reflected in the government department does not make it less of a priority for government. The members opposite often ask questions related to the Residential Tenancies Program. There's no department of Something and Residential Tenancies Program. I'll leave it at that.

 

Furthermore, I'll add that there is, in fact, a Deloitte report that even community partners are talking about - it's not just my words - that there is a direct correlation between housing and the economy. Increased supply increases housing security, which has a direct and positive consequence on productivity in the workplace, therefore translating to a direct and positive impact on the economy. There is a direct line. I didn't write that report. Deloitte themselves did.

 

The way that we look at tracking progress within the department on our action plan is looking at the number of units that are planned, constructed, or completed. We have snapshots in time. We provided our first update on our five-year housing plan a couple of weeks ago. It's good news, actually. There was a lot of good stuff in there, but nobody's talking about it on the floor of the Legislature. It didn't make the six o'clock news as much as I would have hoped for, because there's lots of good to share. It's not the success of government; it's the success of our community partners and of Nova Scotians. We're investing because we truly believe - I've said it a few times; I'll say it again - that the solution to the housing challenges we're seeing in our province is more supply.

 

When we look at putting our actions into words through that ambitious and groundbreaking plan, over five years $1.7 billion of investment, we're creating the conditions. Government doesn't build all the housing in the province. I'd love to be able to have a little bit of time to go and build some housing, but we are creating the conditions. We're working with our community partners. I alluded in my speech to the support for our community partners.

 

[5:15 p.m.]

 

Our community sector has - our non-profit sector as well - they have 1,400 units that fall under planning, construction, or completed. Under the completed umbrella, we have 35 that are units or new homes under the Secondary and Backyard Suite Incentive Program. There are over 300 in the hopper, so those are in the planning/construction phase. We have 24 of the 51 modulars that are occupied, and the other ones are going to be online soon. We have our new public housing that's under construction, the 222 first round. The additional 242 will be communicated at a later date, based on the site selection.

 

What's important to know, going back to the comments of creating the conditions, is we are cutting miles and miles of red tape. We're breaking down these barriers to make it easier to build homes. We need the availability of our skilled workforce, so we look at working with our post-secondary institutions, looking at government programs like the More Opportunities for Skilled Trades and Occupations Tax Refund program, freezing development fees in the HRM, looking at cutting the provincial portion of the HST on new rental units. These all fit into the member's question.

 

I don't have a breakdown of the 51,300-something units at what particular stage, but I can say with confidence that we are meeting and exceeding all of our targets in our housing plan and meeting or actually exceeding the 2028 target at a percentage of 125 per cent.

 

SUZY HANSEN: I'd like to have a breakdown of that. I only have a small number of community partners that have actual numbers that are complete and then under construction and, as the minister said, creating conditions. Absolutely, I wouldn't expect a house to be built tomorrow or the next day. I understand this is a process, but we've been here for four years. I think at this point we would have a larger number than . . . and I know this is not the number, but what I was given is 59 units completed. I know that's not the case, so I'd like to have a breakdown if the minister could, at some point, table that information.

 

My next question is the Provincial Housing Needs Assessment Report found that in order to close the gap between supply and demand, 71,600 units would be needed by 2027. In the five-year housing plan, which the minister spoke about, it was noted that the government was confident that the market would create 30,400 units by 2027 and that the department would work to help close the remaining gap of 41,200 units. This was in the Provincial Housing Needs Assessment Report. Can the minister tell me where the gap between supply and demand stands today?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: I hope the member tomorrow in Question Period doesn't quote me on a few numbers and try to skew the actual results of the progress that is being made in the province.

 

We live in a province where every unit matters. We need to maximize every opportunity, every unit for its full potential. I spoke about the investments we are making in our public housing units to preserve and protect them. We've also provided funding through our community housing partners, to non-profits, to acquire units on the market that otherwise may be lost. I do agree that it takes time. It takes time to build housing but the commitment of government is there to make the investments, to create the conditions, to break down those barriers, to remove that red tape.

 

What I'd say - and I wish we had been the government in power in 2010 because I can probably reassure you, Chair, that a government on this side would have - of our stripe - would have come up with a new housing plan. We are the first government to come up with a housing plan that addresses the need for more supply, that addresses the long-standing issues in the province - 3,500 units for affordable and supportive housing were maintained through support through the government. That is important to know about.

 

What I do want to note for the member is that the housing profile, or housing needs assessment, is a snapshot in time and it's difficult to have a continuous assessment of that. We don't have a dashboard where it's keeping track of permits coming in, completions, and skilled trades workers. That's impossible, but what I can say is that we do plan to add another housing needs assessment at some time.

 

I can table for the benefit of the House the progress report that was shared last Monday highlighting all the work that's being done, not just within government but with our housing community partners, with the non-profit sector through funding made available through government - over $120 million for the non-profit sector over the last two years alone. Important statistics to know are the housing starts. Year over year, January 2024 to January 2025, a 38 per cent increase. That's pretty good. Want higher? Absolutely, but it's better than a deficit.

 

Provincially we've seen an increase of 9.2 per cent in housing permits. That is 9,150 new units were permitted in Nova Scotia compared to the same period the year prior. With that we're also seeing our vacancy rate stabilize. In Nova Scotia - I'll talk across the province, not singularly in HRM - we've seen the vacancy rate nearly double. It was 1.1 per cent in 2023 and last year it was 2 per cent. We know that we need to continue that supply to increase the availability, to increase the vacancy.

 

The CMHC report that was discussed last week in the House and using those highlighted parts - well, parts of it were highlighted in the media this morning - we talked about vacancy rates increasing, not just this year, not just in 2026, 2027 as well, and with that also a stabilization of rents. With rents there's also - and that's one part of the spectrum, the continuum of housing. There's also home ownership. We supported over 660 first-time home buyers through the Down Payment Assistance Program. As I mentioned, I alluded to on the floor here, we're looking at the small business loan guarantee program that was part of our government's platform. I will have more to say in the months ahead. I hope that helps to provide a little bit of a snapshot of the progress for the member.

 

SUZY HANSEN: I was just curious to know, are we on track? I know there are things happening and numbers are waning and waving a number of times. I'm curious to know, based on the statistics the government has given us previously about the housing assessment, are we on track to clear that gap by 2027 and build all the 71,600 units needed?

 

Now, we may need more after that, but by 2027 will we be able to have all of those units available and ready to live in?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: Again, we build just a piece, a quantity of housing, that belongs on the spectrum. We know that we need more public housing, as I've mentioned before, and our government's putting our money where our mouth is. That said, I even said this in a media availability when we announced the new, additional 242 units. I'm glad nobody took it out of context.

 

I hope - and I recognize that there's a public housing wait-list. I recognize that. Staff have worked hard, are continuing to work hard, to bring down that wait-list. We've shaved many months off the wait-list. We'll continue to do that. We'll look at the policies to ensure fairness and equity.

 

That said, there are folks on that wait-list who won't get in public housing because of our government's efforts and the efforts of our community housing partners and of developers and other partners who are building the supply themselves, and folks who are on the wait-list can perhaps find housing in another type of home.

 

With that, there's the support of government for rent supplements, which I'm sure we'll talk about during the next two or three evenings.

 

Just because I cited that we've met our target, or exceeded our target, of 2028 and we're at 125 per cent, I have no desire of slowing down. I have no desire of stopping at 51,300. Let's keep going. If there's more tape to be cut, pass me the scissors. If there's a hammer to drive a nail, pass me the hammer. Let's get it done.

 

We're going to continue. Again, the CMHC report that I alluded to, talked about in the Legislature last week, talks about the progress, that vacancy rates have gone up. Let's talk about it: 1.1 per cent, 2 per cent. It will go up next year and the year after that.

 

We know that a healthy vacancy rate is 3 per cent. Do we go higher? Sure. Let's make that happen. I think to tie the bow here, vacancy with housing starts - again, I go back to a 38.5 per cent housing start increase, year over year, from 2023 to 2024. We'll see what next year brings.

 

[5:30 p.m.]

 

I'm optimistic that that progress will continue, that the work of government - and more so of the partners and developers and community partners that are doing the building. There are things that are out of our control. There are things within our control. Whatever's in our control - if it's barriers, we'll tear them down. If it's red tape, we'll cut it down. If it's working with community partners - if there's a good project to be supported by our government, we'll certainly look at it. Recognizing the need for more public housing, we got it done. We're going to get it done. Again, housing starts, vacancy rate, tie it together, we're moving forward.

 

SUZY HANSEN: It would have just been simple to say yes or no that you were going to clear the gap up or you were going to meet that expectation. I guess there are going to be a lot of moving pieces, moving forward.

 

One of the key elements of this government's housing plan is the development of a special planning area. The minister knows how I feel about the special planning areas. I'm just curious to know where we are with this. Can the minister tell us how these areas are selected and what environmental assessments and community consultations are completed?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: I alluded to if I was a hammer to swing, I would swing it to build housing. In the housing toolbox, there are many, many different tools - big tools, small tools. This is an important tool. This is a tool to help accelerate housing development within areas of the HRM. We hear that we need more housing, and we hear that we need to do it faster. That's a tool to enable that.

 

That said, the executive panel, which was struck, I think in 2021, is comprised of representation from both HRM and the province. Special planning areas are put forward through the executive panel. It is important to note that developers must comply with all municipal requirements. They must comply with all provincial laws and regulations, including environmental regulations. I cannot be clear enough that no one gets a pass. Just because you go fast doesn't mean you get a pass to go even faster. There are some benchmarks and some requirements. There's some rigour.

 

Through the designation of the 15 special planning areas, we've enabled planning and building to begin for over 49,000 units, many of which would have otherwise been stalled, taken many months. These were brought to market between three and 24 months earlier than otherwise would have been the case. Development agreements - and this perhaps will help answer a question prior about planning, on construction and completed, that the member asked - there are development agreements already in place for 9,165 units. The special planning areas, as of September of last year, 120 units have been completed and have had occupancy permits granted. Of those, 32 units were affordable.

 

SUZY HANSEN: Thank you for the numbers. I appreciate that. My next question about special planning areas is: How is the need for housing weighed against environmental concerns, particularly a loss of biodiversity like in Sandy Lake?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: As I mention again - and I want to be crystal clear on the record so it's not twisted tomorrow or the next day in QP - developers must follow municipal regulations. They must also follow provincial rules and regulations. Those include environmental laws and regulations. Nobody gets a pass. To help address what the member has brought forward, the executive panel has provided HRM with a grant of $2.3 million to look at various land-use and environmental studies, including the one that she's brought forward.

 

SUZY HANSEN: It's really interesting, because you started off with saying the government is cutting tape and breaking barriers, and then they're decided by the executive panel. I was curious and concerned about community consultation and what happens when a community does not support the creation of a proposed special planning area based on the environmental concerns. When we think about what we can look past - and I understand that there are rules in place, but as we can see, sometimes things are changed often. I just wanted to be clear that when something happens in a community, does the community have a say over what goes through or what processes happen when the special planning areas are named or placed? The minister spoke to that, so I won't drill on it. I just wanted to put that our there.

 

This government has committed $22 million to create affordable housing in the Mount Hope special planning area, and that agreement was obviously abandoned by the developer last Spring. Where has the $22 million been redirected to?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: While that development was going forward or going through the process, the company advised that their circumstances had changed, so unfortunately that element of the project didn't move forward, and the money allotted for that initiative has gone back into our general revenues.

 

Before I dive back too far into this answer, I want to go back briefly to special planning areas. I said they are a tool of moving forward fast with housing development, and we hear - sometimes it's a little frustrating. We say we want to go fast, and the Opposition says go slow. When we want to do more, they say less. We say less, they say more. We go left, they go right. It's hard to win, and I respect that their role is to keep government to account, but opposition means more than simply opposing.

 

That said, specifically to the member's question about whether there's engagement with the community - absolutely. There's the Shape Your City webpage. There's a bunch of information available there and HRM planners are ready and available to speak with the public. Again, recognizing that we need housing. it's tough to take questions and say, well, we need more housing, we need it yesterday, and on the other hand, it's like part of the answer is, well, here's one of the solutions, and being shot down because you're trying to move forward on housing. It's tough to have it both ways sometimes, right? I get a portion of what the member is bringing forward.

 

Looping it back to Mount Hope, there are 30 additional units that are already built in Mount Hope. It's a partnership between the YWCA and Clayton Developments, and the member might say 30 is a far cry from 373. That said, we're making record investments in our community housing partners - $120 million, which is a heck of a lot more than the $22 million otherwise allotted. This is supporting some of our best landlords, our community housing partners that are keeping units affordable and available for Nova Scotians, and we'll continue to do those investments.

 

SUZY HANSEN: In no way am I trying to question the fast, the more - all of these things. I just want clarity, and when I ask specific questions, I would like to have clarity on those questions. It's not that I'm trying to maneuver anything outside of this room. What I'm trying to do is get the clarity that is asked of me by my fellow constituents and Nova Scotians that are on my paper that I am going to be reading. It's not something that I'm doing in particular, per se; it is the questions that haven't been answered before, and they need to have answers.

 

I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm actually just trying to find out what are we actually doing, and what is actually happening, because investments absolutely are being made, and I credit that to the department. I credit that to the minister responsible. I'm not saying that these are not worth - there's worth to that. What I'm saying is, I have no idea what is being spent on what and what is being built when, so I am just being very clear about that. Thank you, Minister, for that answer. I truly appreciate it.

 

I'm going to get into affordability because the minister did touch on affordability, and the minister knows how I feel about affordability. In total, how many new units of affordable housing do you expect the housing plan to create over the five-year period, and how is affordability being measured, because I've heard a few words on affordable housing. I just want some clarity on how affordability is being measured.

 

[5:45 p.m.]

 

COLTON LEBLANC: Going back to the tool box, there's no affordability-measuring tool.

 

I should say that there's no single definition of affordable housing. What's considered affordable depends on the household's income, composition, and location. That would vary significantly as you move across the province. The department uses several affordability standards to reflect the broad range of housing needs. In some instances, it's rent geared to income. The Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency uses a rent-geared-to-income model. Under this model, a tenant's rent is determined by their household income and composition. It never exceeds 30 per cent of a household's total before-tax income.

 

Some other programs that also target households with moderate income use a different indicator for affordability. The Affordable Housing Development Program requires developers to set rent at at least 20 per cent below average market rent. In brief, there's a broad definition of affordability.

 

On the construction of new affordable units, we average about 300 new units. Through the Affordable Housing Development Program, we'll see 1,500 over five years, and through the Land for Housing Program, we'll see nearly 1,200.

 

SUZY HANSEN: In the province's Provincial Housing Needs Assessment Report it states that 14,000 is the bare minimum of deeply affordable - and I'm going to go by what the minister said. I'm thinking deeply affordable is RGI, which is the 30 per cent.

 

Those are the units that are required to make affordable housing a reality for all Nova Scotians. This is the number that is expected to grow over the next decade. We've already seen the numbers growing, which is why there are a large number of rent supplements. What is the government's plan to get us there, and how is this progress being tracked, so that we know how many we need and how many we don't need?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: A clarification: Is the member referring to rent supplements or units or - how we're going to get to - okay.

 

I just want to clarify for the record, I didn't say that rent geared to income was considered deeply affordable rent. I just want to - for that clarity.

 

Our five-year target is at least 17,250 households even more affordable. In my opening remarks I indicated that we are already at 16,200 households. Of course, we're not going to stop; if we can go higher, we're going to go higher. That's through a number of different streams, new supply being one of affordable. That's with community partners. That's also with the new public housing rent supplements that will - again, I fear we'll get deep into rent supplements up to our ears. Rent supplements are a partial subsidy of a person's rent - and then through first-time home buyers.

 

We've already supported more than 660 first-time home buyers. We're going to continue that work and are currently exploring within the department what the first-time home buyer loan guarantee program can look like and what best suits the needs of home buyers in this province, the current climate of the province, and making sure that we're maximizing that investment for the next generation.

 

SUZY HANSEN: I know the minister is utilizing a number of different options. I just have a question because the announcement was made of $136.4 million for the 242 units that are expected to come online at some point.

 

I had someone else calculate - not me - the math. That is a little over $500,000 per unit, so $563,000 per unit. Non-profit providers are bringing units to market at under $400,000 per door.

 

I spoke to a non-profit housing organization, and they said that if you took $136 million and invested it in non-profit housing, likely 300 of those would be deeply affordable, meaning the 30 per cent based on income. More than 242 - which we have now, those were the numbers for public housing - more than 242 would be, of that 300, affordable. Then another one-third of that would be 50 per cent of the market or less, which would be moderately affordable. Another one-third would still be more affordable than market rent.

 

I'm curious to know, why aren't we utilizing the non-profits to get this work done faster? I had a question before about we have non-profits that are building units in record time, as long as they have the funding to do so. It wouldn't be just our funding; it would be other funding.

 

If we're going to invest this amount in housing, we need the numbers because the supply is a need. Why aren't we utilizing the non-profits to do that work?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: I'm not a financial guru by any means. I can do my taxes with TurboTax. That's about it. I struggle with RRSPs. What's important to know is through this historic and generational investment, it's much more than doing that math of $170-some-odd million divided by 242, which gives you some of the numbers the member was referencing. It includes planning, it includes water access, it includes septic and sewer access in areas, some parking lots. It's much broader than just the plain construction of a building and doing simple math door-to-door.

 

It is important to note, as I mentioned, that part of our desire as a government is to use provincially owned land, provincially serviced land to drop the cost for those particular builds. For project management, there's a lot to it. That said, I appreciate the feedback that the member brought forward from our community housing partners. As I mentioned, they do great work and we certainly value that work, and we'll continue to partner with them. We've put $120 million on the table in the last two years alone. I don't think a government would do that if we didn't trust them and have confidence in them to deliver and be part of our project.

 

They provide affordable housing options to some of our most vulnerable Nova Scotians, to lower-income and middle-income earners. They help with the growth in this sector, particularly with new supply. The amount of money that we've put in for preservation - again, we need every unit. When we hear about some tragedies - when you have an apartment fire, that's a situation that's displacing people from their homes in a market where it's already tough. We need every unit. We need to preserve those units. We need to support these partners, which we are, in upgrading, in renovating, and sometimes bringing accessibility improvements to these buildings. There's programming designed for that.

 

In last fiscal, 2024-25, $60 million was the forecast committed and invested in our community housing. That's incredible. The year before that, the Province committed and invested $70.1 million in housing. I'll give a quick breakdown: $36 million in new community housing and supply; $20 million in the preservation of community housing-owned units; and $3.8 million in capacity and seed funding and operational support for the sector. These funds were disbursed in year and funds were committed for future years as well.

 

On the new supply, we've got the Affordable Housing Development Program. This program supports the creation of new affordable housing supply through capital contributions with private and community housing developers. It helps fund the construction of new housing projects and conversion of non-residential buildings into residential. I think that's important. Overall, it's to increase not only the affordability of these units, but also the accessibility of these units at a time when it costs to heat your home, also bringing energy efficiency improvements to homes.

 

[6:00 p.m.]

 

Last year, $27.6 million was forecast in commitments and disbursements for the community housing supply - sorry, for new supply; $20.9 million in planned disbursements for new supply projects in the sector from commitments made in prior years and the current year, and the funds will be disbursed in that year; $6.7 million forecasted project commitments to be made this year here and will be disbursed through future years. Eighteen million dollars was allocated as of January to build 288 units, and of those, 147 affordable in the community housing sector. We look at 86 per cent of all units.

 

In 2023-24, $36 million was committed and invested for new supply in the community housing sector to fund 13 projects. That will create over 276 units, of which 74 per cent will be affordable. That's 204 units.

 

I referenced the Land for Housing Program. This program is really important. It helps create affordable housing when we look at making provincially owned land available to private partners and developers, to community housing developers through a competitive process. In exchange, government does what we can. There's always an exchange process there. A portion of those new units must be affordable.

 

Since that program was launched - it was in May 2022 - 13 active proposals, accounting for 1,181 units, have been awarded. Of those, 533 of these units will be affordable; 26 of these proposed units are themselves in the community housing sector. It is expected that - we call them property opportunity notices. There will be more property opportunity notices, faster, released throughout this year. Maybe we'll drop the “faster.” There will be more publicly available land made available because we know that it's important for both private and community partners. If the member applied for a backyard suite program, maybe.

 

We went through the Affordable Housing Development Program, the Land for Housing Program. Again, I can't underestimate the importance of preserving what we have, the stock that we have. We have the CHAP - lots of CHAP and CHIF. There's a lot of acronyms in this department - and CHIF. I'll just call them what they are - Community Housing Acquisition Program - so we don't have any confusion. This program supports community housing organizations to preserve affordable housing units. They provide a fixed-interest-rate loan of up to $10 million to purchase existing multi-unit residential properties. It might be a property up for sale and tenants faced with that uncertainty have some concern. A new owner has the opportunity to work with the department to get some money, some funding, to bring some repairs as needed through this funding stream.

 

As of earlier this year, in January, over $29 million has been loaned to community housing organizations to purchase 495 affordable housing units. Last year, in 2023-24, $10.5 million was loaned to fund the purchase of 10 buildings that will preserve - again, the importance of preservation - 75 units, of which 73 - so, almost all of them, that's 97 per cent - will be affordable. Eighty-eight per cent of loans have been issued in conjunction with the Department of Opportunities and Social Development for supportive housing projects that provide an operating subsidy.

 

There's the Community Housing Capital Fund. In 2024 this program was launched, and it supports community housing organizations by providing capital grants to assist with the purchase, again, of existing multi-unit residential properties. When it comes to this program, community housing partners are required to complete a detailed prequalification process in order to apply for the funding, and there are three organizations that have successfully completed the prequalification stage. It's administered on behalf of my department by the Community Housing Transformation Centre.

 

The Community Housing Infrastructure and Repair Program - this is another really important program that supports communities, housing organizations, and provides some funding for repairs of existing multi-unit residential properties. In fiscal 2024-25, a total of $13.6 million is forecasted in commitments and disbursements; $6.4 million of that is planned disbursements from project commitments made in years prior and current year commitments that will be disbursed in this year here; $7.25 million forecasted project commitments to be made this year, which will be disbursed in future years. Then as of earlier this year, again, in January - the snapshot in time is January of this year - a total of $7.8 million has been committed and invested to repair 230 affordable housing units. The year before, in fiscal 2023-24, $9.8 million was committed and invested to undertake repairs to preserve over 187 units, of which all of them were affordable.

 

When we look at building more capacity and building more supply, we have the Community Housing Operating Support program. This is short-term operating support to community housing providers to meet their immediate needs, like, today. The program budget in 2024-25 was $2 million. As of earlier this year, $78,000 has been invested to support two organizations with 124 units. In fiscal 2023-24, $1.7 million was invested in four community housing organizations with 491 units to provide short-term operating support to these organizations. They've demonstrated a financial need and are taking steps to develop their business model to achieve financial self-sufficiency.

 

Finally, the Community Housing Growth Fund provides financial resources to community housing organizations to fund early-stage development, organizational capacity building, and research and innovation. The overall program budget is $7.5 million. Since the creation, the launch of this program in April 2022, 103 projects have been awarded, representing $4.1 million investment. In fiscal 2023-24, $2.127 million was invested through this program to support 57 projects: of capacity building, there were 43 projects; planning and predevelopment, 52 projects; research and innovation, 8 projects; and a further $2 million is available specifically for African Nova Scotia . . .

 

THE CHAIR: Order, please. Thank you, Minister. It is now the time for the Liberals. They'll be allotted one hour.

 

The honourable Leader of the Liberal Party.

 

HON. DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: He's clapping now. We'll see if he's clapping in five minutes. Chair, through you to the minister, thanks for the opportunity. I'm going to focus on the economy in my hour, we're not going to go near housing tonight. We'll do that tomorrow. My colleague, the member for Timberlea-Prospect, may come in and ask some questions.

 

I do want to, through you, Chair, recognize staff who are here - and the minister brought probably half the government with him for Estimates - and I want to say something that's important. I see lots of familiar faces, people I've seen over the years in my time in government. We've seen a lot of changes take place and pieces of legislation repealed in the last number of weeks for the right reasons. I say this with all due respect to the government and my colleagues: They should also repeal the legislation for staff in government who can be fired without cause, and I need to say that. That's important for all the staff here who are supporting this minister and all the staff who have been coming in all week.

 

As I said, we're going to go right into the economy. Let me start with tariffs. I'm going to try to do some quick snappers. I've been following along in his responses to things. He likes to tell a story, so hopefully we can get a few questions in during the hour.

 

Ultimately, I want to talk about tariffs; that's been on the mind of everyone. There's a contingency of $200 million that the government has put into their budget.

 

My first question to the minister is: Does he feel - it's a two-parter - that $200 million is adequate? What is the plan for the department to spend that money?

 

HON. COLTON LEBLANC: Even though I also have the - I have the deputy minister who is also the Deputy Minister of Finance and Treasury Board - might have been a good question to ask the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board. That said, I'll entertain this question.

 

The threat of tariffs has been like a yo-yo. It has been here; it has been there. The goalpost has moved so much. First it was on, then it was off. It was on again. It has created so much uncertainty for Nova Scotians, and not just Nova Scotians but Canadians alike.

 

When the Premier and I met with members of our business community in January, that was a message sent; it was uncertainty. Coming out of many years of uncertainty because of recovery from the pandemic, this period of uncertainty has escalated again.

 

Nobody wants tariffs. Tariffs are bad. It's crystal clear - bad. They are bad for our economy. They're bad for the American economy. I don't know if the American people recognize that, so we'll see in the fullness of time what transpires. We might see a tweet before we're done here tonight that another game plan - I don't know.

 

I wish we could have a little more clarity and certainty about what's going to happen. That's the reality. We could be faced with no tariffs for the next month - again, another reprieve. Then another tweet, another month. This could continue to drag on until President Trump's mandate is over. Again, I don't know.

 

The $200 million, from my understanding speaking with the Deputy Minister of Finance and Treasury Board, hasn't been earmarked specifically for one item. It's a contingency. It's a buffer that's built into this year's budget. It has been positively referred to as a good move for a provincial government to do this.

 

We will, as I've indicated in previous responses, meet the needs of Nova Scotians. We are listening. We are taking action. We were the first government to announce retaliatory actions in the light of the last time President Trump came out with tariffs at that time.

 

Again, this is not just a Nova Scotia issue; it's a Canadian issue. The Premier has been meeting with federal-provincial counterparts. There is a role here for the federal government. We can't put our own tariffs, as a province. We can come out with retaliatory actions, which I say with confidence, we'll do again. We will continue our work as a province with the federal government which has a big role here.

 

That said, we will respond accordingly if and when tariffs do come through.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Chair, through you to the minister: That's an alarming response for me, that the Department of Growth and Development's message is, Well, it's a finance question.

 

It's the Department of Growth and Development in the middle of a potential threat of tariffs.

 

[6:15 p.m.]

 

I have a list of things I will happily suggest in the next hour that I think the department can do to help support small businesses in the community, how you can strengthen Nova Scotia Loyal, and how you can allocate some of that $200 million throughout the department. For me - this has been our argument, that we're not hearing a plan. We're not hearing a plan in the event that tariffs come.

 

I agree with a contingency fund. We had to do that during COVID, and governments spend money when they're faced with significant obstacles that affect not only businesses but Nova Scotians and how we operate each and every day. To hear that the Department of Growth and Development doesn't have a strategy in place right now - and it is a moving target. I agree with the minister; it is a moving target.

 

We've heard this idea of tariffs for the last number of months, but I would hope that we could get some more assurances because Nova Scotians are looking for it. Small businesses are looking to the Department of Growth and Development for assurances. Their workers are looking to the Department of Growth and Development for assurances, and the government's talking about mineral resource development, exports, and interprovincial trade. All that, I would suspect, would flow - one of the major departments they would flow through is the Department of Growth and Development.

 

Continuing with the economy and the threat of tariffs, is the department looking for any - through you to the minister, Chair. I want to reconfirm because my next question is: Is the department looking to offer direct support to Nova Scotians and Nova Scotian businesses in the event of a 25 per cent tariff and counter measures?

 

I'll ask that question through you to the minister: What does the department have planned to provide reassurance to businesses as the Department of Growth and Development, and what supports are they going to provide to these businesses in the event these tariffs come into play?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: I hope the member opposite is not trying to twist my words. Again, I'll emphasize that it's a contingency that's built into the budget. It's not built in - it's not a line item into the Department of Growth and Development. To insinuate otherwise - that we're not taking this seriously or whatever, whatever it may be - is simply not true. I can't be any clearer that we have met and will continue to meet with businesses. We have met the needs before, in previous instances, through different supports, whether it be during natural disasters - for example - for businesses and for Nova Scotians alike.

 

I cannot commit today that there is going to be a particular stream with a particular amount of money with a particular sector without knowing the full impact of potential tariffs.

 

The member referenced time during the pandemic. During his time in government, I'm sure it was an ever-evolving situation, day by day. I have a lot of respect for the government of that time and staff that navigated unprecedented times, but here we are again, a few short years later, navigating uncharted waters - choppy waters - and we don't know what's happening day to day.

 

Hypothetically, yes, we could have tariffs tomorrow, and they could be gone the next day. I don't know. We could debate for an hour over what may or may not happen, but I want Nova Scotians to know what will happen; their government will be there for them and take appropriate action.

 

That said, we met with businesses, chambers, and RENs. We did speak with them. We launched a survey through the chambers that - we had a snapshot in time of responses, I believe it was over 170 businesses - and they talked about things we're talking about right now. They talked about trade diversification, or market diversification, and removing interprovincial trade barriers. The positive impact on our GDP of doing that alone is huge: growing, diversifying, and scaling up existing businesses, supporting our traditional industries, and then tapping into new opportunities.

 

I think it's important to have those conversations regardless of the threat of tariffs. We find ourselves where some jurisdictions that may have critical minerals may decide they're stopping exports.

 

If we want to truly fight climate change, support a green economy, and have renewable energy here, we need to have the building blocks to do it. If another country says no more lithium to Canada, then we're going to find ourselves in a difficult position.

 

Going back to programs for Nova Scotians, there are existing programs in this budget that were there before the threat of tariffs to support exactly what we need to do - support our businesses and help them diversify. I referenced it in my opening remarks: the Export Development Program helping companies looking to diversify their trade markets, whether that's in Europe, Asia, or any other Canadian province, for that matter. This program gives companies the guidance, advice, and travel support to get to new markets and be successful once they're there. We have our regional business development advisers. They're the first line of contact. We need to do a better job to ensure businesses know how to reach out for help and get those resources and that wealth.

 

We have the Innovation Rebate Program helping companies increase productivity, which increases their bottom line. We have supported - approved - 77 projects since March 2022, which includes over $254 million in private sector investment being supported by $61 million in rebates, and 75 per cent of those projects support rural areas. One thing that's important, and recognized during the meeting the Premier and I had with members of the chamber of commerce community, is our procurement.

 

We recognize there's a tremendous buying power of our own government and prioritizing our own Nova Scotia businesses when awarding government contracts. We have our Nova Scotia first procurement policy, which gives a 10 per cent advantage to Nova Scotia companies when they are below free trade thresholds. These are small purchases. When we're looking at goods and services, it's $33,000 for goods and $133,000 for services. It's a lot of money for some, especially smaller businesses, when they rely on cash flow coming in. That's an initiative we are ready to and will continue to put our support behind.

 

Finally - to allow the member to ask a few more questions - through our credit unions, the Small Business Loan Guarantee Program. It helps new and existing businesses gain access to key capital they need to grow and thrive. There has been $223 million awarded to 4,110 businesses since 2003, and there's more to come.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We have heard the challenge is that some of these organizations the government has met with are looking for follow-up. There are initial meetings that have taken place. The government has reached out. We're hearing there has been no follow-up. There's been an ask for feedback from organizations about the potential of tariffs. We're all doing that. All caucuses are doing that. We're meeting with stakeholders across the province. We're in a situation now where these businesses - it wouldn't matter who is in government. You have your initial meetings. People are looking for a follow-up, and they're looking for a plan. You have companies that are 25, 50, 75, and in some cases over 95 per cent exporting to the United States now and looking for a follow-up from the department on what the next steps are going to be.

 

I do want to get into the GDP side of things because GDP is a problem for us. It has been a problem for us for a while. It's the worst, and there's a lot of work to be done to look at it. Some of the measurements we have around consumption are some of the worst. Our exporting numbers are low. We're either last or second-last in a number of metrics.

 

On the theme of the tariffs, is the department doing economic modelling to predict how the tariffs are actually going to affect the economy here in Nova Scotia in the GDP?

 

I should have done this for staff and the minister. If you want to take a recess - I just jumped up. You're good? I just wanted to make sure.

 

THE CHAIR: That's a great point. We're coming up on two hours here. I'm good, but definitely before answering the question, Minister, are you good? Okay, thank you.

 

COLTON LEBLANC: My understanding is there have been follow-up letters sent out. I'll confirm, double-check on the timing, it may have been as late as last week, with some additional information. There was a lot of interest in our Nova Scotia first procurement policy to ensure that Nova Scotian businesses were aware. There were not a lot of representatives on that call who were aware of that. Also, I guess, more important, there's a lot of interest in it. So, looking to get that information updated, and we spoke about Nova Scotia Loyal, as well.

 

There's a lot of interest in our Nova Scotia Loyal program, some good feedback that we've received. My understanding is that information was shared. I'll say it publicly here that there was even a desire to work with folks at Service Nova Scotia through the procurement division to set up a “how to do business with government,” whether it's to take advantage of the Nova Scotia first procurement policy or just to get the notifications of when government is doing business. We'll certainly follow up on that.

 

Of course, during these times of uncertainty, we value and need this feedback. I know that the IGA has met with over 125 businesses and sector associations, but as this period is ever evolving, the feedback is important and will help inform government of appropriate actions. We do have that tariff hotline, and there's an opportunity to get direct feedback from IGA, say, “Here's our concern; I want a call back.” Right? So, that's there.

 

The member spoke about GDP - bang on. It's not if we are the second last; we are last. If you look at all the provinces in the country and all 50 states and put them on a list, it's a sad state of affairs that Nova Scotia finds itself at the bottom. It's not a list that you want to find yourself at the bottom of.

 

We recognize that we need to grow our traditional industries, but that alone will not get us to where we need to be. If you look at our current GDP, it's $45 billion. So, there's some room for improvement. If you take wind, hydrogen, critical minerals, those three sectors alone can increase our GDP by $15 billion or so.

 

These are conversations we want to have as a Province, as a government, to create these opportunities for Nova Scotians, to create economic growth and prosperity in development not only here in Halifax but in other parts of the province to enable government to invest more in health care, invest more in housing, and more in infrastructure, in our roads, in our province, and in our Nova Scotians.

 

Going back to the member's question about forecasts or if there are any projections. My understanding is yes, there were some projections taken into consideration by the Department of Finance and Treasury Board when they were putting together this year's budget. Yes, they have the implications of potential tariffs on a provincial budget.

 

[6:30 p.m.]

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: This is a conversation I would enjoy having with the minister because this is where the department ultimately is going to have to go.

 

The minister makes valid points. He is making points around - he agrees on the GDP, but he also was talking about the things the government wants to do to expand the economy when it comes to our traditional industries. Exports can be big for our fisheries - diversifying our markets there. The critical mineral piece is a big one. Now mind you, there is lots of potential out there.

 

We tabled a bill - I'm not allowed to talk about a bill in here. I forgot. Sorry, Chair.

 

Essentially, the best thing the department could do is a geological survey to find out where the best opportunities are for critical minerals. Infrastructure is a big piece of it, but the department probably needs to study - because you have to get critical minerals either across to another province or to port. Right now, the infrastructure is a big issue when it comes to rail and other pieces of critical infrastructure, now that we're talking about interprovincial trade and talking about a different world based on what's happening in the U.S.

 

It's an interesting conversation. It's one - I hope the government takes a look at its own infrastructure. They probably could, through the department, start looking at some of the stuff that will be important moving forward for successive governments because a lot of these developments are going to take years. There are things we can be doing now.

 

I want to talk about Nova Scotia Loyal. It's interesting because I was having conversations about Nova Scotia Loyal, and we expressed concerns as a caucus around the program when it rolled out. I argued that it was more marketing than anything else. There were concerns around it not filtering down into the local businesses - that it was really one grocery chain, there were some Scene+ points attached, and all those things. To me, when you are looking at that program, you have to also look at - and again, these are suggestions. This is not just about me asking questions and trying to ask tough questions of the government or the department.

 

The best thing you can do with the Nova Scotia Loyal program, if you want to help local producers, is get them involved with the lunch program because we're hearing all the contracts are going to the big companies. That's failing. We're hearing that. People are having a hard time accessing the schools, and we have a fully funded lunch program. The more we can do to help those local vendors, the better.

 

That is a big part of it for me when it comes to this program because there is potential there, but right now people are asking what the validity of this is. The announcement came (inaudible) which businesses will support. We are not disagreeing with that. Again, it's got to filter down into those - what opportunities are we going to give those smaller entrepreneurs who are Nova Scotia born and bred if they are paying the taxes here, they are not tied to a big chain, and they are local producers? Looking at the school system is a big piece of it for me.

 

My question to the minister is: Can the minister tell us how much money the department has spent in total since taking office in developing the Nova Scotia Loyal program?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: Going back briefly to the last response or last question, rather, the member opposite started his question on critical mineral exploration. We're not the lead department, but we have an important role. We are a convenor. We work with other government departments that are leading different initiatives. So in this case, if it's the Department of Natural Resources that's to lead, and they're doing geological surveys, great, we'll support that. If it's increasing and supporting our fisheries, we'll work with the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture. If it's the Department of Agriculture, we'll work with them. The member is trying to say that all of this falls on one department. It doesn't. There are subject-matter experts who work in respective departments, and we'll work with them. We'll support them.

 

He talked about infrastructure. Department of Public Works does road infrastructure. As much as I love roads, we don't do roads in the Department of Growth and Development. The member opposite talked about ports. There's a role for the federal government there, as well. All of that said, we've got to look at infrastructure. Well, we have the largest capital budget plan investing in infrastructure this year.

 

Switching to Nova Scotia Loyal, the member spoke about how much money - he ended it with the question of how much money we've spent on Nova Scotia Loyal to date. The forecast for 2024-25 is $6 million. I appreciate the question about the Nova Scotia School Lunch Program - valid point. That's something I looked at: how do we ensure where our investments in government go, whether what's going on in the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture is complementing what's going on in the Department of Agriculture and other departments, in the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development. To that effect, the Department of Agriculture has actually seconded a staff member to help in the identification, to help find local suppliers, to help find supply chains to work and fit in with probably one of the biggest things that we've done as a government - the School Lunch Program - which we want to support. If there is a way to support our producers through the School Lunch Program, we will find it, and we'll make it happen.

 

I do want to talk a bit about the member's preamble about Nova Scotia Loyal. I 100 per cent want our producers and our growers and our crafters and our manufacturers to be successful, and I don't feel that their success is going to be defined on whether they find themselves in a big-box store. The reality is a lot of Nova Scotians go to larger-box stores, but they also go to smaller stores. That's why, since I have taken responsibility for this file, we've ramped it up. We've done a number of different things.

 

Last week alone, we announced a pilot program to work directly with the producers to include the Nova Scotia Loyal logo directly on their products. I think it's more identified than ever now, and Nova Scotians want to support local. They have already indicated that they want to spend more time - they're willing to spend more time to look for local. I think it was about 85 per cent. If they're willing to spend more time, and some people have actually indicated - I think it was about 70 per cent or 75 per cent - that they would be willing to spend more money, and understanding we're in tough economic times, the least we can do as a government - the least we can do - is make it easier for them to identify. Through that labelling program, it's a $300,000 item that we'll co-share 70 per cent of directly with producers, for up to $5,000. That's being administered on behalf of the department through Invest Nova Scotia.

 

That said, there was lots of criticism about going with Sobeys, and I don't want to open the book of history, but what's really important to know, and I said this last week when we were making the announcement for the label program, and I said it very briefly in QP here the other day, it warrants a discussion. To be in big-box stores, where a lot of people go and do their groceries, is a pay-to-play environment. Through the investment we've made through this government, we've given - it was more than 160 local producers a gateway, the opportunity to be in a big-box store.

 

Thousands of Nova Scotian products are now on the shelves of, in one case, Sobeys, an opportunity that otherwise they would not have had. Despite the criticism, despite the shots at this program - those are shots that are being taken indirectly at our growers, our harvesters, and our producers. That has spoken loud and clear. I read two testimonials in my opening remarks about the positivity of this program. I met with some of them the other day at our labelling announcement about the benefits of being there and the benefits of the farmers' market initiatives we've done. Now more than ever, we are taking this challenge and turning it into an opportunity. It will pay dividends in the long run.

 

Moving beyond the one big-box store that has faced criticism, guess what? It's an investment in Nova Scotians. Looking at it, it was a good one, to make sure the money flowing through at that time was an important incentive, but the incentive is there. Nova Scotians want to support local.

 

I personally have written to pretty much all big-box stores in our province. Like I indicated in the announcement, I'll have more to say in the days ahead. There is a strong interest to not only become part of the program but, more importantly, to be part of the movement. I encourage any member in this House to work with their producers, growers, and harvesters to join the program. It's easy online. We've seen our numbers grow five times since the end of January. Those are pretty good results. There's no slowing down.

 

I thank the staff for their efforts on this because I pushed, and they delivered. It's making an impact. When you talk directly with the producers and listen, there's some feedback. It's been invaluable feedback. How can we make it easier for some of the smaller producers? Those are some of the side conversations we had. It's cost-sharing and different processes. It's having a better understanding of the program. What's next? What's stored in the hopper? Communication is key. I want to reassure businesses that we'll continue that. This is an important program. We're doubling down on it, and I'm proud to say we're making progress at a time when Nova Scotian businesses need it the most.

 

When you buy, let's say, a Nova Scotian apple - last month was Apple Month. It's not just you're supporting an apple; it's grown here, and it's picked in the Annapolis Valley. That's good. You're also supporting the grower, the harvester, and the family - it's likely a family-owned business, and that family, time and time again, are themselves giving back to their community. We all know, in times of difficulty, some of these small businesses are the first ones to support a good cause, whether it be a charity, a hockey team, whatever it may be. That's what makes Nova Scotia special, and we'll continue to support these types of initiatives to support our Nova Scotia growers and producers.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: One suggestion I heard through - and I'll pass it along - about the student voucher program that went out. If you could get that out before - correct me if I'm wrong - it was put out in June. Try to get it out earlier because everybody goes on vacation in the Summer. With some of the stakeholders I was talking to, that was a suggestion, and see if you can expand it beyond P to 12. That would be the other side of it, too. Get it into the colleges and the universities when the Fall comes. If that's something the government could look at, I would encourage them to do that, as well. There is potential there. The more access the better.

 

[6:45 p.m.]

 

The government's got some work to do on it when it comes to getting not just the big-box stores. If you can get into a farmers' market, go to a farmers' market, and have the same impact where you don't have to go to a big-box store and still get the benefits of Nova Scotia Loyal, that would go a long way for not only many of the local vendors - you know what I mean, regardless of what they're selling, whether it's food or local wine. There are lots of examples to provide. I did want to say that. Get those vouchers out before June. That would be good, and if you can expand beyond P to 12, that would be good, as well.

 

My next question - Chair, you would appreciate this question that's coming, as a Cape Bretoner. I got into this the other night, as well. I'm going to go back into economic development. I'm going to get back into the idea of critical minerals, interprovincial trade, and how our infrastructure is going to be important. Our roads are going to be important. Our ports play a huge role in this when we're looking at markets outside of - well, in Canada and beyond. It's the safest way to move product.

 

As you know, in Cape Breton we have three exits off the Island. None of them are divided highways. You can go through the Seal Island Bridge way. That's where most of the transport trucks are going if they're travelling back and forth. There are some restrictions on Route No. 4. As beautiful as Iona is - it's a beautiful drive - it's not built for transport. Mind you, there's a mine there, and they do a great job. I want to talk about that, because that was a mine that was closed for years, and now they're reinvesting in it again. There's demand there again. Mind you, it'll be interesting with the tariffs to see how it all plays out. That's another company that would be shipping product to the States, as well.

 

I go back to the rail, and I ask this question to this department because it was this department that announced last year that they were cancelling the subsidy that was provided for the line from Sydney to St. Peter's. We all know there's a lot of work, and there have been assessments done. It would be a significant investment from the government toward that. We know that. This government has made significant investments all over the province when it comes to the hospital built here and to many of the things they've studied over the years. They've spent millions on consultants - many millions on consultants.

 

My point is that we're in a situation right now where we do have some potential developments that could happen in Cape Breton, from a resource perspective. I would argue - and you would know this, Chair, from your time and the rich tradition and history of coal mining in Glace Bay and surrounding areas. My family is from Glace Bay on my father's side; the McInneses were all involved with the mines. A lot of that mine was being railed. It was being railed to port, then it was put on port, and away it went.

 

We're in a situation right where, if we're going to truly talk about interprovincial trade, we're going to want the best infrastructure from point to point in this province. Part of that is that junction, that section from Sydney to St. Peter's. Successive governments over the years worked with the owners of that rail line to ensure that railbed wasn't removed. Last year, this department announced they were cutting the subsidy, which essentially, to me, was a commitment - well, it wasn't a commitment. It was sending a message that this government was going to abandon that for good.

 

As I said the other night, there are sections of it that will never be used again. There are sections in Sydney where the old rail station used to be. The last time I was on it, we were going to Iona as kids in school. Successive governments, for a reason, kept that intact in the event that there were major developments that were going to take place on the Island. Port development was one of them at the time. That was one of the rationales around the work we did. I reference Minister MacLellan from back in the day when he was doing a lot of work around this, working with the company. I had a front row seat to it. We protected it in the event that something was going to come. And yes, the business case hasn't been there. I'm not arguing that. That is something that - ideally, you want a business case, and you're going to want private investment.

 

But now we're in a situation where, I believe, we need to start having a conversation about that line again. If the government is going to talk about mining, if they're going to talk about critical minerals, if they're going to talk about hydrogen, if they're going to talk about all these things, for the success of the Island and for the success of interprovincial trade, we're going to need a strong rail line from Sydney to as far as we can.

 

There is a section there that multiple governments over the years have made a commitment to. It was this department that cancelled that subsidy last year. So, my question through you to the minister is: Will they look at that and review it and make sure that it's part of an economic strategy, if we're going to get into mineral resource development?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: Going back to the member's comments on Nova Scotia Loyal, I appreciate his feedback. I'll point out that I agree and share with him that we need to get those vouchers out earlier in the school year, before the end. I can't commit exactly, but we're looking at that. We actually have piloted those vouchers with Acadia University, as well as NSCC. So, we'll look at what's in the realm of possibilities moving forward. I agree with the member; those vouchers are a positive. There were over 21,000 that were redeemed, and of those, 38 per cent were redeemed by first-time visitors.

 

Talking about investments in infrastructure, we as a government have invested a lot in infrastructure. Our roads, being a rural MLA, I'm proud of our government's record to improve - and I hear some gasping over there, but . . .

 

AN HON. MEMBER: No, I was just drinking water.

 

COLTON LEBLANC: I don't like audible drinking noise or eating noise.

 

AN HON. MEMBER: Sorry. Sorry. It was in peace. I was gasping.

 

COLTON LEBLANC: (Laughs) We've made some big investments in the RIM program, big investments in our gravel road program, investments in road infrastructure across the board. And those investments aren't just - I wish there were more down home; I've got to talk to the minister about that. But the new minister from Cape Breton, the new Minster of Public Works would know how much our government has invested in Cape Breton.

 

I don't think we shy away from the fact - you too, Mr. Chair, would probably agree with me; I hope you would - from our government's investment in Cape Breton. So, whether it be our hospitals - I used to be responsible for the rebuild project in Cape Breton, and I know how much it is of importance to that community. I know the member opposite was very close to that file.

 

We believe in that. We went a step further and announced a cath lab. When the Minister of Health and Wellness announced that, I was excited, because I knew first-hand what that meant for, not just Cape Breton, but patients who would need cardiac catheterization in that area - and in that, not just the area, the region of the province.

 

But what that could potentially mean for other parts of the province, where sometimes there's a bit of a wait, is more capacity for cardiac catheterization here on the sixth floor of the Halifax Infirmary, for folks down home who may need to have a cath done. And then you tie that in with our new fixed-wing aircraft, it's a pretty good investment - that, schools, long-term care, roads.

 

I did say that we don't do too much in infrastructure, but we do a bit, actually. Through the Community Economic Development Fund, when it comes to infrastructure that's required for growing or new sectors, we've invested $750,000 in the Strait Superport's Mulgrave Marine Terminal for wind exploration that's going on in that area.

 

We know that we have infrastructure needs in this province. We're investing in new roads, new twinning, and bridge upkeep - the Minister of Public Works could talk at length, when he was questioned about that, about the condition of bridges in our bridge program - the new infrastructure that's going to be needed. We'll work across government to make sure infrastructure that's needed is there. We'll work with levels of government to ensure that type of infrastructure is there.

 

Relating to the member's question about rail, there used to be a rail line down home. People would say, “I remember taking the train to go from Yarmouth to Halifax.” It's a long ride. Unfortunately, that doesn't exist anymore. To correct the characterization, though, the agreement expired at the end of last fiscal year. The Province has made contributions under that agreement of approximately $2.8 million. That said, the Province has entered into a - had a funding agreement with CBU. The province has announced funding - $610,000 - to CBU for them to commission a feasibility study for rail in CBRM. We haven't seen that study. We're waiting for that report, and we'll see what happens from there.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: It's an important conversation because the minister makes a point of rail infrastructure in his own community, and it's not there anymore.

 

I've been around it enough. We've had situations at home where you've had companies looking at building alternative roads to keep trucks off your main arteries because noise pollution becomes a big issue if you're rolling big trucks full of minerals - whatever it is, whether it's ash or lime, whether it's coal or whatever. These become huge issues.

 

Our road systems aren't built for consistently taking these trucks. This has been in the media over the years at home, with Donkin. They started looking at building separate roads to get to rail, to get to port because they were rolling trucks through communities, and the communities would protest. It might go to social licence, and they have every right.

 

These are the conversations that - it's one thing to say we're going to get into mineral resource development, we're going to do this, and we're going to change the game here. There's $16 billion worth of infrastructure, but you've got to look at how you're going to get it to where it's going. That's what is lost in this.

 

I agree with the minister. There's lots of great infrastructure that has been done. The twinning between Antigonish and New Glasgow was significant. I know this government is taking that twinning a bit farther down the way. I hope the day comes - it's mapped out, I believe - where the twinning goes from Sydport Industrial Park in Westmount right out to Halifax. It's already mapped out, so I'm told. I hope the day comes. I won't be here when it happens, I'm sure, in this seat. I hope that day comes because that's a big challenge for the Island.

 

You hear stories of developments that are taking place. Provinces are going to potentially come looking for what we have. We know there are deposits of copper all over the province. We know there are different deposits of minerals that companies are looking at. Gold was a big one here, as well.

 

If these operations are going to open, and there is that significant level of investment that may come to the province in the billions - $16 billion - you're going to have to look at rail. You're going to have to start looking at how you move product around this province right now.

 

I'm standing in my place as a Cape Bretoner saying, “Don't give up. Don't give up on that.” Listen, there's lots of money that needs to go into it, but if the bed is there, don't give up on us, especially now. The argument is a lot different than it was a year ago. We're dealing with a situation where we have to diversify as much as we can, unfortunately, with our biggest trading partner.

 

I want to get that question on the record again, and I'll talk about it again.

 

[7:00 p.m.]

 

I know it's not easy. I know it's not going to happen overnight. I know there have been a number of reports done, but I'd hate to see that completely removed, and then all of a sudden, we have a few major developments where we're wishing we can get our product off the Island.

 

Our road infrastructure pays the price ultimately because, as you know, big trucks and heavy trucks on roads that aren't completely designed for it, where we don't have the divided highway at home, and when you're driving up - if you're going through Seal Island Bridge or driving up a mountain range to get off the Island.

 

I implore my colleagues on the government side to keep the conversation going.

 

I have only about eight minutes left. I want to see here what I have left to ask. I do have a question. Bear with me here, folks. I'm just going to make sure I cover everything before - seven and a half minutes. I'll take two minutes, you take five, and it's over. Sorry, through you, Chair. Sometimes I like to just gab.

 

I'll go back into the tariffs, and I'll say this: The minister said it's a Department of Finance and Treasury Board question, so I will ask the question when I have the chance to talk to the Department of Finance and Treasury Board, as well. Does the minister feel that the $200 million contingency - you're into big deficit spending right now by this government - $200 million of that is a contingency, and you don't really know what's going to happen.

 

When you look at some of the bigger businesses that we all know of here - I use this as an example on the Island. You look at Port Hawkesbury Paper. You look at the Michelins. You look at these companies. In the minister's conversations with them, does he feel that a $200 million contingency is going to be enough if tariffs are imposed on those larger companies?

 

THE CHAIR: With just under five minutes remaining.

 

COLTON LEBLANC: Respectfully, I'm not trying to brush off the question on the $200 million contingency. That was a value figure determined by the Department of Finance and Treasury Board. They are the subject matter experts in coming up with a budget. They are doing the projections there.

 

It's something we're conscious of when it comes to being able to support businesses. Again, for the benefit of the House, that $200 million has not been earmarked for any particular program or any particular sector. I wish I had a better answer when we are saying that this is as much of a period of uncertainty for government-based as it is somewhat for businesses.

 

Conversely, when the member was dealing with a global pandemic, day-to-day things were changing. This is a fluid situation. We are ready to take action. This is a shared response between the provinces and territories and the federal government. There is a role for the federal government there. There could be consequences in the broader element of counter-tariffs. Those are all things we have to take into consideration as they are announced. We are part of Team Canada, and the Premier has been leading some conversations with federal, provincial, and territorial colleagues. We have a role within the Department of Growth and Development. The Department of Intergovernmental Affairs has a role in this. The Department of Finance and Treasury Board has a role in this, and respective departments also have a role in this, working with the appropriate sectors.

 

Again, I'm not trying to brush off whether $200 million is a right or wrong answer. In the words of the Minister of Finance and Treasury Board, this was a well-thought initiative by the Department of Finance and Treasury Board to build that into our budget projections. Ideally, we wouldn't have to use it. Ideally, we won't have - we will get by throughout this year, the year after that, and the year after that without tariffs, but we do not know.

 

What we do know and what I can say is that we will respond appropriately to support business, as we have before. We will continue that dialogue, but until we get to a point where we know with certainty that we are faced with tariffs or not, we remain in this position that we can't show our cards. If we show our cards, we could find ourselves - President Trump is going to tweet something else. We want to be very - it's a sensitive issue. It's impacting businesses and their business decisions, and that, as a Nova Scotian, concerns me. As a minister of this government, it concerns me because these are people who are hiring Nova Scotians who are supporting our communities.

 

There is a time - when the time comes to announce supports or initiatives, whether it be from our government or to share with other levels of government, we will be there for Nova Scotians. Again, I can't underscore enough how this uncertainty is creating great stress for our business community, for business owners, and for employees themselves who do not know, whether a week, a month, or a year away - what is going to happen.

 

As I've said in the Legislature, tonight and before, we are listening, and we are engaged. We will continue that dialogue, whether it's directly with me, other ministers engaged, the Premier, or dedicated staff who are fielding some questions and themselves not really having an answer. I know we like to be able to provide answers, but when we are ready, we will.

 

THE CHAIR: Order. That concludes the allotted time for questions from the Liberals. Minister, I am looking at you and your staff to see if you would like to have a break. Five minutes?

 

We will now recess for five minutes.

 

[7:09 p.m. The committee recessed.]

 

[7:18 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

 

THE CHAIR: Order. The committee will now come back in session. It is now time for the NDP questioning.

 

The honourable member for Halifax Needham.

 

SUZY HANSEN: I'm appreciative of where the minister left off with the numbers and the units and the information that was given. I'd like to know if the minister could table that so that I could take a really good glance at it.

 

I wrote a number of things down, but the thing that I wanted to mention was that the minister mentioned affordable units and gave numbers of affordable units as they go. For many of the department's programs, including the Land for Housing Program, the CHAP, and the Affordable Housing Development Program, the definition of affordable used is 20 per cent below average market rent. When I was asking about affordable, I'm curious to know: Is it based on that definition? And could you explain why this definition of affordability was chosen?

 

HON. COLTON LEBLANC: Hopefully, this answers the member's question. For some programs, it's the minimum - so we're talking the minimum - it's a minimum of 20 per cent below average market rent. Some of our community partners go as low as 40 per cent below market rent, and some of the providers will go - will make their basis on a rent-geared-to-income rent model.

 

SUZY HANSEN: I'm grateful for that explanation. You did mention in the beginning that there is no definition, and then you broke down the other versions of affordability. I just wanted to have an understanding of what that meant.

 

I'm wondering how many of the 16,000 - a little over 16,000 - that you mentioned of affordable households - of affordable units - I'm curious to know how many of them are you claiming under - or just calling “rent supplements” as part of the unit breakdown within the numbers. I think I said that right. Did the minister get that?

 

How many of the 16,000 affordable units that the minister mentioned are just rent supplements and not physical units?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: I think this is probably the department where we've talked more about numbers in Estimates than any other department. I apologize for all the different numbers and perhaps some confusion.

 

I referenced the 16,200 affordable households or household units that are more affordable right now. Our target, again, I'll remind the House, is at least 17,250 over five years. Again, we're at 16,200.

 

I can break down our goals or our targets for 2028. That will be with the construction of 5,000 rental units, supporting the construction of new affordable and supportive units with housing partners, which includes the 25 per cent located on provincial land, as well as preserving and expanding community housing through funding to purchase or to repair low-end-of-market rental units. That goes back to the $120 million investment over two years to our community partners - an increase that has gone up tenfold - and the other programs, as well.

 

Then the 11,000 unique households to receive support with monthly rent by 2028 through rent supplements. Then our target is 1,250 homebuyers - so 250 a year; we're north of 660 right now - to receive help to purchase their first home through, at that time, the Down Payment Assistance Program.

 

To go down the rent supplement conversation, we've invested significantly in rent supplements. When we formed government, it was $11 million or so. We increased that budget to $69.2 million in last year's budget. I believe we've increased it again, so it's $69 million annually with triple the number of clients we've helped. We aim to serve close to 11,000 people and families this year. We've done that through modernizing and revising our policies and practices to best serve Nova Scotians in need.

 

Again, it's not supposed to cover the entirety of the rent. In certain situations, we've seen where households were receiving more rent supplement than the rent. That's not fair when we have - again, I acknowledge we have a wait-list - a processing time, rather. When we're trying to help more Nova Scotians with a finite number of resources, we need to maximize the program, so we made those changes.

 

As well, we're lobbying the federal government. We've increased our contribution - we've quadrupled it - but we've not seen an increase from the federal government. If the federal government wants to chip in more money, we'll gladly take it, and we'll gladly serve more Nova Scotians.

 

As of January 22^nd this year, there are a total of 8,573 active rent supplements. The average subsidy for portable benefits is $658 per month and non-portable benefits is $440. There is a homeowner benefit of $200, and then the survivors of gender-based violence average subsidy is $1,110 per month.

 

SUZY HANSEN: I want some clarity so I'm not thinking the wrong thing. When you said 8,573 rent supplements as of this year, and then there are 16,200 households, that means we're over half the amount for rent supplements per unit - so it's 50-50. There are half that are actually a rental that are in affordable households, and the other half are the using of the rent supplement. I want clarity so I can be sure.

 

COLTON LEBLANC: I'm hesitant to say yes, I'm hesitant to say no, but I believe it's a yes. Our target, again, is 11,000. We have 8,500 active rent supplements - a few more than that. I believe the member's question is about half the 16,200 that we're talking about in rent supplements. If that's the question, the answer is yes.

 

SUZY HANSEN: That's exactly what I wanted. I was trying to do the numbers back here, but I wanted to make sure I was subtracting the amounts in the right way so I didn't assume it was what it was.

 

My next question is: With average rents rising increasingly, is the department concerned that this measure of affordability will not produce the level of affordability our communities need? We're seeing the rising of the rent supplements. We also know folks are in housing need. I'm curious to know: Is this measure of affordability - percentage wise for the affordability - is this showing what our communities are needing right now?

 

[7:30 p.m.]

 

COLTON LEBLANC: The rise in rent supplements exists today because our government's invested in more rent supplements. We acknowledged, when we took office, there was a problem on the table, that it had not had the investment it needed. That's why we've increased the budget the year we formed government, the year after that, and the year after. This is the third or fourth increase to the budget for this, recognizing there's a need.

 

We talk about the many tools in the housing tool box; this is but one tool. We offer a range of affordability programs and a range of tools. Rent supplements are one tool to support Nova Scotians. They are a partial subsidy of rent to help Nova Scotians in that time, and perhaps at a later date they would not need that support. We have the Affordable Housing Development Program; that's another tool. We talked about the preservation of units. We have the Community Housing Acquisition Program; that's another tool. We have public housing, which is another tool.

 

We find that we see folks who find themselves in public housing today who may not need it five years down the road, or - invert the table - they may not have needed it today, but they may need it five years down the road. It is a bridge. It is to support our most vulnerable Nova Scotians. That's why we've made changes as well in public housing to that program to ensure more fairness and more equity, understanding that we need to preserve all the units we have.

 

I recognize that a large portion of our demographics who are in public housing are seniors wanting to age in place, so we want to support them. We recognize that we need to do more accessibility conversions. We've done that. We've made investments to do that.

 

Then you look at overhoused situations. You might have a family that's been living in public housing for 20 years. Mom and Dad had three kids, and the kids moved out. Now they find themselves with vacant bedrooms.

 

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, we can maximize the units we have, such as that story where staff worked with a couple to get them into a new type of public housing closer to more services they need and more social activities. It has benefited them and has also enabled a family with the need for more bedrooms for their family to take occupancy of that unit.

 

SUZY HANSEN: Is the department tracking the number of affordable homes being lost as a result of buildings being sold and redevelopment plans moving forward? A prime example is Ocean Breeze Village in Dartmouth. Does the minister have a sense of whether we are creating more homes people can afford than what we're losing?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: We appreciate that when we lose housing stock and tenants are faced by this type of situation, it's difficult for them. In this case with Ocean Breeze Village, as the member references, it's a privately owned property. The Province wasn't involved in their development decisions. Staff have had many discussions with the owners about some of the programs we have - the Affordable Housing Development Program - which the developer could have used to maintain affordability as part of their redevelopment plans. As a private developer, they decided not to pursue that opportunity.

 

As a government and as a department, we continue to be focused on solutions that will help create the conditions to build more housing faster, across the spectrum, including affordable housing. One of the programs I referenced earlier was the Community Housing Acquisition Program. There has been over $31 million in loans that has helped acquire 511 affordable units. That's one initiative.

 

I know there was a story today talking about affordable housing stock. It was written based on the same agency report that I referenced last week in the House, talking about increased supply, increased vacancy, and rent market stabilization. We provided comment for that story, but there was a lot missing in that story. I read it this morning, and for the benefit of the House, I'm going to read our media response because it highlights what we're doing to address the exact question the member is asking, and it's an important question.

 

Last week the minister and myself announced the significant progress made in the first 18 months of the five-year housing plan, which is meeting or exceeding all targets and getting people into housing faster. That's because the government is making historical investments in housing for the first time in years.

 

We maintain the solution for people who need housing is more housing. Our efforts are seeing results. The latest CMHC report shows that the market is stabilizing - report attached here. We are also hearing anecdotally that landlords are starting to offer incentives to bring in new tenants.

 

We know that adding more supply is indeed helping. The projected vacancy rate is projected to rise over 2 per cent for the first time in years.

 

Preservation of existing affordable housing units is a key focus of our housing plan. As part of that work, investments in the community housing sector have increased tenfold, with more than $120 million invested in the last two years. That will work to preserve or create 1,400 affordable units across the province.

 

We received national acclamation for our lending programs that are focused on helping community housing organizations preserve units. For example, the Community Housing Acquisition Program supports community housing organizations to preserve existing affordable housing units by providing a fixed interest rate loan of up to $10 million per acquisition to purchase existing multi-unit residential properties. As of January 2025, over $29 million has been loaned to community housing organizations this year to purchase 495 affordable housing units. In 2023, $10.5 million was loaned to fund the purchase of 10 buildings that will preserve 75 units, of which 73, or 97 per cent, will be affordable.

 

The Community Housing Capital Fund was launched in 2024 to support community housing organizations by providing capital grants toward down payments to assist with the purchase of existing multi-unit residential properties. This program can be stacked with the Community Housing Acquisition Program.

 

The Community Housing Infrastructure and Repair Program supports community housing organizations by providing funding for repairs to existing multi-unit residential properties. This year a total of $8.4 million has been committed and invested to repair 316 affordable housing units.

 

In 2023-2024, $9.8 million was committed and invested to undertake repairs to preserve over 187 units, of which 100 per cent are affordable.

 

In addition, we have provided $3.5 million Tawaak Housing Association in the past two years to repair and operate 111 housing units targeted to the Indigenous community; $8.5 million has also been provided to the Preston Area Housing Fund in the past years toward the repair and operations of 48 units that were divested to them by the Province and targeted to the African Nova Scotian community.

 

The housing repair and adaptations programs also allow low-income homeowners to complete necessary health and safety repairs or accessibility adaptations, helping them remain safely housed and extending the life of the property. Over the last five years, the average loan amount has increased by 24.4 per cent to $12,531 per household. This is partially due to the rising costs of materials and labour. As of December 31, 2024, 1,971 households have been supported to date this year.

 

Other key work under way to preserve units and affordability include:

 

·         335 publicly owned affordable housing units have been upgraded; the goal is to upgrade 900 units by 2028.

·         4,608 Nova Scotians, many of them seniors, were helped through home repair programs

·         more than 12,000 households were supported by a rent supplement

·         more than 300 secondary/backyard units in the works, creating affordable housing for hundreds of people

 

Our work is just beginning, and we have no intention of slowing down. I hope this information is helpful for your story.

 

I'll table this for the House.

 

There are, as I mentioned in a previous response, supports - there are programs there. It is up to private developers or community organizations - non-profits - to take part in these programs. We're ready and willing to support them because we recognize the need for housing across the spectrum, including affordable units for the most vulnerable Nova Scotians.

 

SUZY HANSEN: I thank the minister for that lengthy explanation that was two questions ago, when I asked about non-profits and how they are able to build 900 units at a fraction of the price of whatever the minister had mentioned about the 242 units they were going to put forward for public housing.

 

There are solutions on the table, 100 per cent, and there are people who are asking questions and wanting to be a part of the housing builds across the spectrum. I appreciate the minister for giving that same answer to the question I asked previously.

 

I also wanted to know, since we're talking about the investments and the significant amount of work that's happening, my answer for the - Are we on track to clear the gap by 2027 and build all 71,600 units? - has not been answered.

 

With all due respect, I do understand there's a lot of work that is happening. It's still not giving me the numbers to add up to where we should be at that time point. With respect, I truly appreciate the minister for tabling the document so I can have a clearer picture of exactly what is being said here.

 

My next question is: A number of families are living in hotels while we wait for a housing unit they can afford. Can the minister provide an exact number of families that are living in hotel rooms?

 

[7:45 p.m.]

 

COLTON LEBLANC: For the benefit of the House, I'll also table the progress report that I announced last week, which summarizes a lot of the numbers that we're going through this evening and will go through again tomorrow. It's also available online.

 

To the member's question, we, through the Department of Growth and Development - the member's question doesn't fall directly under us. The Province works with service providers through the Department of Opportunities and Social Development, so perhaps the minister, when he's up, can answer the member's question.

 

SUZY HANSEN: Does the minister have a sense of how many affordable family units will be created this year to help move those families from the hotels to homes? Maybe this is a question for the Minister of Opportunities and Social Development, so then that way it won't be a duplication. Here as well, can you define what measure of affordability is being used for those units to move folks from the hotels into any affordable units?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: We're investing in this year's budget for the creation of new units. It would be a total of 1,100 that we're investing in their creation. I know there's a tremendous amount of work that's done and under way within the Department of Opportunities and Social Development. I know they work closely with service providers, they leverage the Community Housing Acquisition Program - or the service providers, rather, leverage that funding through my department, so there is that relationship there, of course.

 

We want folks who are living in hotels to have a more secure and long-term housing option, so that is hopefully a shorter-term solution for them, but there are rent supplements available, as we've discussed. There's public housing, as well, but it's important to underscore some of the work between the Departments of Opportunities and Social Development and Growth and Development when it comes to priority access for folks experiencing homelessness.

 

Since November 2023, the Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency has provided housing to more than 225 households - since we've implemented that priority access stream. There are, I believe, four streams of priority access, this being one, but recognizing, yes, affordable units, we need more of those. We're investing, the money's on the table, and we're working with our community partners, non-profits, and private developers to ensure that sector is invested in public housing, as we've discussed, and also looking across the spectrum of what we can do to create those conditions to build more faster.

 

SUZY HANSEN: I'm going to shift into the rent supplement program because that's what we're leaning into a lot here.

 

For the Canada-Nova Scotia Targeted Housing Benefit, how many new applications have been received in the last fiscal year? How does this compare to the year before?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: Rent supplements are one of those tools in the housing toolbox to help making life more affordable for Nova Scotians. Our government has quadrupled our investment in this program to $69 million annually. We've tripled the number of clients we help. We've made - as I've mentioned before - some updates to the program. We aim to serve close to 11,000 people and families this year.

 

The intent of updating our policies and practices is to continue to better serve Nova Scotians most in need. I remind everybody that we're lobbying the federal government to match our increased investment to ensure we can help as many as possible. For Budget 2024-25, it was $69 million, including $11.2 million from the feds.

 

Let's go back in time a bit. In 2020-21, the investment was $11.1 million. There were approximately 3,000 rent supplements. In 2021-22, the investment increased to $18.7 million, and we were able to support 5,000 rent supplements, approximately. In 2022-23, the investment increased again to $29.9 million, and rent supplement amounts increased again to 7,000, approximately. In fiscal 2023-24, investment again went up, this time to $49.2 million and approximately 8,050 rent supplements. In Budget 2024-25, there was an investment of $69.2 million with approximately 8,500 rent supplements provided.

 

It's important to note there are process improvements that have been made to address prior backlogs and to speed up processing. In this fiscal year, 2024-25, the average processing time for an application was 2.2 months or 46.9 working days. A couple years back, in 2022-23, the average wait time was 7.6 months. This improvement - so we're looking at shaving off 5.4 months - was made even with a 19 per cent increase in the applications.

 

SUZY HANSEN: It's interesting. You said it's 2.2 months, and before that, you said it was 7-point-something months. Imagine waiting for a rent supplement for seven months and not knowing when you're going to pay your rent because you're waiting on a rent supplement approval. Now it's 2.2, which is extremely better, but it's still hard for folks to wait 2.2 months, or 49 days, for an application approval when they're on the verge of eviction for nonpayment.

 

I'm curious to know, is there a wait-list for this benefit? If so, how many are on the wait-list? As of the last fiscal year, how many were approved for the benefit?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: It's confusing math. It's like one of those math questions: You take a canoe, go down the river, take a right, and get four apples again. Anyway, I'll try to make it easier.

 

Approximately every month, we get 400 new applicants. We process them continually. As I mentioned, there's about a 2.2-month wait time, but we don't have a wait-list per se. Once they are in, they go through the processing timeline.

 

We may hear of folks who may wait a bit longer, but there's a request for information. If we don't get that information in a timely fashion, there's some back and forth. As with any government program, we have to make sure there's some rigor and ensure we're getting accurate information.

 

With the increased investments we made, we're helping almost 2.5 times the number of people, but we've increased our budget significantly, as well.

 

SUZY HANSEN: The CMHC is a partner in this program, and it lists the average market rent for a two-bedroom in Halifax at $1,700. I wish I could find an apartment for $1,700. At Rentals.ca, it lists the average asking price for a two-bedroom in Halifax as nearly $2,500.

 

Can you explain why the gaps between these two amounts are so large, yet our supplements aren't reflecting those types of changes and amounts?

 

[8:00 p.m.]

 

COLTON LEBLANC: Rentals.ca, one source of tabulating rents, units that are posted for a variety of reasons.

 

Going to the member's question, Rentals.ca, it's open units, units that are available on the market, newly listed, for whatever reason. What's important to note with average market rent, it is exactly what it is. It's the average. You'll have 50 per cent that are below that value and 50 per cent that are above.

 

A stats person will probably have a better understanding than me but it's that numerical value that is the average, you'll have some that are above and some that are below and encompasses that value there.

 

It's not government, not CMHC that determines. They'll do the calculations but what's important to note is that it's market driven. It's the market that determines the average market rent.

 

One important thing to highlight here is that although there has been an increase in average market rent this year of, I believe, 4 per cent, last year it was much higher. It was almost triple. It was 11 per cent. If you look at the shift from 11 per cent to 4 per cent, that shows us that the market is stabilizing, it's starting to cool off. It's exactly what we want. It's highlighted in the latest CMHC report again, increased supply, increased vacancy rates in that market cooling off for Nova Scotians.

 

SUZY HANSEN: I know the minister will know that the CMHC information is outdated, especially when it comes to the rates that are happening here in Halifax. I use Halifax as an example because we could Google it and it would tell you an average market rate and it is definitely not $1,700 a month.

 

There are reports that have been done that I know the minister has his hands on, that will tell you that the average market rent is not that.

 

My question to the minister is: If we know that - and let's just say that someone applies for a rent supplement and their rent right now is, let's just say, $2,400 a month - why aren't we basing it on what that is, instead of what the CMHC rate is? Why aren't we doing the adjustments based on what is on the market right now, based on the need of that person who needs it the most, so that they can actually adjust their finances instead of paying more than 50 per cent, or more than that, on their rent alone.

 

I am just asking if we know that the numbers - and that is a median - if we know that the numbers in each area are different - because there are studies that show that - we should be basing our rent supplements on that, as a percentage of whatever that is, so that folks can actually survive without struggling to pay rent. That's my question.

 

Minister, if you know that the rents are going to be higher - because they have to produce that information in order for them to receive a rent supplement, they have to show all of the information, what is their cost of rent, who their landlord is, what does the lease look like? It would show that. Why aren't we basing it on that information, not the CMHC information?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: What we need to ensure is that - or remind ourselves that we're trying to ensure consistency and fairness and equity in our programs that is reflected in some of the program changes that we've made.

 

Again, rent supps are based on actual rent, up to average market rent. Average market rent values are the most effective tool available. Respectfully, I would submit that units on Rentals.ca or if it was Kijiji marketplace or whatever source, may not be the most accurate source of information. Again, average market rent includes rents that have been long-standing leases. They include newer leases and include leases signed today. Again, it's a representation. It is a numerical value set by CMHC as an average. Again, there are some that are way above - there are 50 per cent that are way above and there are 50 per cent that are below. It gives you that snapshot.

 

I think it's important to remember that Rentals.ca is open units that may be priced higher and may stay on Rentals.ca for many, many months. Again, we are seeing the market start to cool off. The CMHC themselves are saying it. I would submit that Rentals.ca, as much as they probably do a good job, is not a good way to measure what people - all people - are paying for rent. It is, in some cases lower, as the member is indicating, and in some cases it is higher.

 

CMHC gives the most accurate statistics on what people are actually paying for rent based on the formula they have, including existing units that are currently vacant and available, as well as leases that are long-standing and under way between a tenant and landlord.

 

SUZY HANSEN: As the minister said, leases don't lie. The lease would tell you exactly how much you're renting for. You have to provide that to even apply for a rent supp, because you can no longer receive a rent supp unless you have a place. Those are the rules - the guidelines - in which you're able to apply for a rent supp. You can't just say, “Oh, I really want to live in that unit that costs $2,500, but I can't because I have to sign a lease, pay my down payment, and live there to show the lease to the rent supp folks and wait 2.2 months to find out when I can actually be approved - if I'm approved, if they call me back.”

 

I just wanted to point that out, because leases don't lie. They do give you the accurate number and they will tell you how much it costs, which is even higher.

 

Rentals.ca is just an example. There are other options. I just wanted to point that out, because it is true. The lease would tell you, especially from your landlord, how much you're paying per month.

 

I'm going to move on. The Province has another rent supplement program that is cost-shared with the federal government. It's called the Survivors of Gender-based Violence Benefit. I just want to know: How is the monthly housing benefit calculated with this program, and why is it calculated differently than the Canada-Nova Scotia Targeted Housing Benefit?

 

COLTON LEBLANC: To close the loop on the member's last question, I think it's important to know and recognize that in the housing tool box, rent supps aren't the entire solution either.

 

Again, I'd remind the member that they're a partial subsidy. They're not necessarily intended to cover an individual's or a household's entire rent. We have made, again, a number of changes to the program to ensure equity and fairness for Nova Scotians and to take a finite number of resources to maximize it for the most that we can.

 

Going to the member's question, and I know we've discussed in the Chamber the impacts on our province of gender-based violence. We recognize that it is an across-government initiative, across-government effort to move forward. Let's not talk, necessarily, about the dollars. This is about the programs required to support survivors and those fleeing domestic and gender-based violence. No one should live in fear. We want survivors of gender-based violence to know that there is support available, and that they have options.

 

Related to the survivors of gender-based violence, the Canada Housing Benefit is one way that we're working with the federal government and community partners to create safe spaces for women and others who are fleeing gender-based and intimate partner violence. This benefit supports the recommendations of the Mass Casualty Commission and actions outlined in our province's housing plan.

 

As the member referenced, the program was jointly launched in July of 2024. It's jointly funded by both the province and the government of Canada. It provides eligible individuals and families who are fleeing or planning on fleeing gender-based violence with financial assistance for housing for up to two years. The province's federal allocation is $11.34 million over four years. That extends from this current fiscal to fiscal 2027-28 and must be matched by our government, which we are. For this fiscal, 2024-25, the budget for this stream is $2.8 million.

 

As of late January, there are 139 active recipients, with an average monthly benefit of $1,110. As of late January, we've received 230 completed applications; 69 are in progress, five pending approval; 44 are awaiting further information from the applicant; and 20 currently assessing. Twelve applicants were already living in safety and in receipt of supports through the existing rent supplement program and, finally, 10 did not meet the criteria for the program.

 

It's important to note that, and in this conversation, I want to talk about how the program works. Applicants must have a referral from a recognized transition house or other agency. Applications are available online and at over 30 referral agencies across the province, including Alice House, Nisa Homes, the Mi'kmaw Native Friendship Centre, Adsum for Women and Children, Avalon Centre, Autumn House, and Bryony House, among many others. The standard processing time for a completed application is one week.

 

Directly related to the member's question, in the first year receiving the benefit, applicants will receive a flat rate benefit based on the number of bedrooms that they require, or are able to access, and family composition based on national occupancy standards. There's no income testing in the first year. This was designed to provide predictability to survivors, and actually enable them to flee even quicker, and get access even quicker.

 

[8:15 p.m.]

 

For a one-bedroom it's $900 per month; two bedrooms, $1,100 per month; three bedrooms and more it's $1,400 a month.

 

In the second year, if they are still in need of support, at that time of renewal the amount eligibility and amounts will be reassessed, based on household income and average market rents. Clients will continue to be eligible if they are spending more than 30 per cent of their total gross household income on the average market rent for the area in which they live, or their income is under a HIL, Household Income Limit.

 

At that time, the benefit amount will be based on actual rent up to a maximum of the average market rent plus 10 per cent. The recipients are eligible to apply for other rent assistance once the gender-based violence funding has ended.

 

In addition to that, directly through that targeted benefit, in that priority access stream, we're also recognizing that there are a number of initiatives under way to support our service providers to create more supply. My department has worked, as I've mentioned many times this evening, a number of programs available to community housing providers that support survivors of gender-based violence, such as the Affordable Housing Development Program and the Shelter Enhancement Program.

 

In 2022, under the Affordable Housing Development Program, $1.7 million was provided to Adsum and $150,000 was provided to Souls Harbour Rescue Mission. In 2024-25 there was $3,000 provided to the South Shore Transition House Association to undertake upgrades to shelter.

 

We also have a priority access for family violence stream through the Nova Scotia Provincial Housing Agency. I don't have the details at the tip of my fingers, but I know that the member for Dartmouth East, the Minister of Environment and Climate Change, announced - I believe it was last year - funding for supportive housing in his community, which also supported a number of units specific for folks who are survivors of gender-based violence.

 

I want to take the few seconds left to thank our referral partners on their work.

 

THE CHAIR: Order. It is now time for the Liberals' turn.

 

A five-minute recess.

 

[8:18 p.m. The committee recessed.]

 

[8:21 p.m. The committee reconvened.]

 

THE CHAIR: Order. The committee will come to order.

 

It is now time for the Liberals. The honourable member for Sydney-Membertou.

 

HON. DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: We have 17 minutes left. Interesting that you leave the conversation from my first hour, and I have a lot of questions around where the department is going on some of the tariff conversations. I know multiple departments are involved. I hope to see more from the department if this thing happens tomorrow, which it may or may not. We don't know. I do agree with the minister that it's a moving target - one that everybody's trying to adjust to, but I think it's going to be our new reality.

 

I would encourage the department to work closely with other departments when it comes to what we feel are some great economic development opportunities to help support people in a situation where these tariffs do come into place. I think about some of the work around mine reclamation that could be happening across the province, that we've already seen. Invest more in putting people to work to help reclaim some of the old, abandoned mines that are across the province, which we know are - there are many.

 

Outside of the $200 million, I think that's what the government needs to start thinking about as well. There's a $200 million contingency, but ultimately in a tariff situation, if this goes through, we may have a number of highly skilled people in different industries who may be looking for work, and I think there are opportunities in our own backyard that we can utilize to help people - projects similar to what they've done out West during the pandemic. To spur economic activity, they had workers in the field go out and plug old drilling sites that were for oil.

 

We have abandoned sites all over Nova Scotia. We could be doing the same thing, putting skilled people to work who may be in a situation where they work for one of - well, small or large - they could be working for one of these organizations with a certain skill set. We would be putting people to work. That's a big investment, and I would argue that's outside of the $200 million contingency.

 

This is my point: The challenge for us in Opposition - and I can't speak for everyone - is that we hear the messaging. We hear “We're open for business” and “We're going to get into resource development and nothing's going to stand in our way” and “We're going to take the No out of Nova Scotia.” In my head I'm going, okay, that's great. We all support resource development, but where are the projects? How are you moving product? Where is the consulting with communities?

 

In a trade situation that we're faced with, which could be dire - we're already starting to see the reports of the stock market starting to plunge now because of it. Based on the fact that this is being talked about again - I get that the government can't show all of their cards. I think that will come. I do want to reference that the new Premier, well just after being elected, is pretty forceful about what he's going to do. He's telling the world that he's going to do it. I commend him for that. He's being very direct with the people who elected him about what his plan is and what his strategy is.

 

I think the government needs to do more to think about what they're going to do here to support companies and to support people who are asking questions about this department and other departments about what the future holds. That's the big challenge for us. We're all here to do our part to help. You put the political stripes aside in situations like this because this is a generational threat, one that will impact the economy significantly, immediately - it already has - and could displace a lot of people who are going to need work.

 

I asked a number of questions tonight around strategy. I know other multiple departments are involved. Ultimately, I think this department is probably going to play a lead role, or should, in whatever that tariff response looks like, if it comes to be.

 

I'll get into the messaging, and I said it. We hear a lot of messaging around, as I said, “We're open for business. We're going to mine. We're going to take the No out of Nova Scotia.” We've seen the government backtrack on a number of things, especially drilling in the Georges Bank. The point I'm trying to make is that there really have been more communications than anything else. One of the pieces they keep referencing is these special interests, the special interests that are impeding our development.

 

Georges Bank isn't a special interest, and the fishers there - I don't consider them that. I consider them people who are working in traditional industries. You go through a lot of consultation in communities around this stuff, from an economic perspective, about the special interests.

 

My question to the minister is: In his opinion, who are the special interests?

 

HON. COLTON LEBLANC: I appreciate the member's preamble. He talked about the Premier being pretty direct with what he is doing or what he wants to do. I have to say we've got a Premier in this province who puts his heart and soul into everything he does. He's like - he gives it his all, every single day.

 

Every decision he makes and every ounce of energy he puts into this province is to move the province forward. It is to tap into those untapped opportunities, to unleash the province's potential, to look at what is in the realm of possibilities when you take the No out of Nova Scotia, as the member referred to. It is to address the housing challenges and crises that we are experiencing in health care. It is addressing the infrastructure deficit that has been left on the table. It is to implement a school lunch program in this province. It is to ensure that the next generation of Nova Scotians have it better than what we have here today.

 

We live in a beautiful province, rich with people and rich with resources and rich with opportunities. I think it is incumbent on a government - faced in the light of uncertainty, to look at - even though it's been a certain way for a number of years - that we look at things perhaps differently, so that we can ensure growth and development and prosperity for all parts of this province, whether you live down home in southwest Nova Scotia or if you live in Cape Breton or if you live in an urban setting, like here in Halifax.

 

That is the goal of this government and highlighted in our budget, a budget that has 17 billion reasons of supporting Nova Scotia. Every dollar is an investment in Nova Scotia, as I'm sure previous governments would have said, and future governments would say. The largest capital plan in our province's history, to address the core needs of our province. More public housing, more schools, more roads, more hospitals, investing in people, and that is at the core of everything we do as a government.

 

[8:30 p.m.]

 

It's highlighted in our business plan. I know the member talked about the economic plan and what are we going to do. Of course, as I've outlined in a number of previous responses, there are existing government programs that are there to support businesses today that were there a year ago and that will be there, once we pass this budget, for the year ahead. I hope that all members of this House will support that, if they are taking economic development seriously, and supporting our business community seriously.

 

There were a couple sub-headers in our business plan that relate to growth and development. It's on Page 2. We look - Diversifying Trade with Dependable Partners. Well, unfortunately our partner to the south is not the most dependable right now. That's why we're looking east/west, looking at new markets for our traditional resources that may have been exported south of the border.

 

The Premier was in Washington last week for the National Governors Association meetings, to ensure that the interests and the voices of Nova Scotians are heard, to share that we don't agree with tariffs, that they're bad and they're equally as bad for the Americans, and that we need, yes, the United States, as much as the United States needs Canada.

 

We're looking at a number of different initiatives. We talked at length about breaking down interprovincial trade barriers. I know there's legislation on the floor of this House, the first of its kind. There's been a lot of firsts in this Legislature, and I think we all share in those successes and in those stories, but I think to lead the country in truly reforming the way that we do trade with the other provinces and territories in this country is something to be proud of as Nova Scotians. I've heard nothing but positive.

 

I was home on the weekend and people said, “Geez, it's about time. Why?” There have been some small success stories when you look at direct consumer sales of certain alcohol, with certain provinces - harmonization of first aid kits. We look at the labour mobility code, the Atlantic physician registry - a great initiative. When we look at harmonizing our building code, what does that mean for the sale of products that are sold here or manufactured here, and vice versa in other parts of the country? How can that have a positive impact here at home?

 

There have been studies and surveys done that show positive impacts, positive impact on our GDP, on breaking down these barriers. We as a government are committed to doing that. It's always clearing the way for business and growth. We're a government that believes in cutting all the tape. If there's tape to be cut, the Premier's got the scissors, and I think the second pair of scissors is with the Minister of Service Efficiency. In our first mandate of cutting red tape for physicians and others, demonstrates that we can continue that effort.

 

We talk about the possibilities to capitalize on our natural resources that have been the backbone of our economy for centuries, but also tapping into untapped opportunities that could create a generational economic success story for our province. This has been a long conversation with transitioning to green energy. I think we have an abundance of natural resources, including wind, including in here sometimes. Many experts agree that our capacity to deliver green energy through offshore and onshore wind resources, along with our expertise, proximity to European markets, seeking clean fuel options, deep ice-free ports, gives us a competitive edge to become a global powerhouse.

 

My department and Invest Nova Scotia are working closely with the Department of Natural Resources to ensure that we have the regulatory road map, as well as the resources in place to ensure that major proponents are able to navigate government approvals.

 

I know that navigating government is not always easy, but we want to make sure we're doing that in an effective and efficient way that meets regulatory oversight of government.

 

I think I am also speaking to the member's previous question about infrastructure. Part of our business plan is also building infrastructure. Our government's Capital Plan 2025-26 includes $2.3 billion for health care facilities, for housing projects, other strategic projects across the province. Not only will these projects help modernize health care delivery, but also provide good quality homes for Nova Scotians, and also create good-paying jobs right across the province. That's at the heart of that initiative.

 

Through our procurement modernization policies, the Department of Growth and Development and Invest Nova Scotia will partner with the procurement team at my former department, Service Nova Scotia, as well as folks at the Department of Public Works to work with contractors and to work with vendors, to ensure that Nova Scotia companies, both big and small, are able to benefit from these major projects happening from one end of the province to the other.

 

Finally, fostering workforce development employment: We fund many service delivery partners, including our RENs, our innovation ecosystem for business incubators and accelerators. These organizations do vital work every day to support companies and start-ups across the province so they can access capital, as well as investment required for their success. Invest Nova Scotia is a key partner there.

 

I do wish I had a little bit more time tonight. I could go for another four hours, Chair. There's a lot of success with the Export Development Program. I think as Nova Scotians we all can be proud of donair meat. Invest Nova Scotia has approved an innovation rebate for Tony's Meats. The company was established in 1963 in Antigonish and now, through a $630,000 capital investment, has been able to export Mr. Donair dried meat snacks across Canada, the United States, and even to the Middle East.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: He referenced every other department but his own most of all.

 

THE CHAIR: Order. The time allotted for consideration of Committee of the Whole House on Supply has expired.

 

The honourable Government House Leader.

 

HON. BRENDAN MAGUIRE: When I go home tonight I'm going to tell my kids I learned that we are the world's leader in exporting donair meat.

 

With that, Chair, I move that the committee do now rise and report progress and beg leave to sit again on a future day.

 

THE CHAIR: The motion is carried.

 

The committee will now rise and report back to the House.

 

A short recess until the House reconvenes.

 

[The committee adjourned at 8:39 p.m.]