Public Accounts Committee

Susan Leblanc (Chair)

Marco MacLeod (Vice-Chair)

Hon. Brian Wong

Tom Taggart

Tim Outhit

Dianne Timmins

Lisa Lachance

Hon. Iain Rankin

Hon. Derek Mombourquette

 

[Lisa Lachance was replaced by Paul Wozney.]

 

 

 

 

 

In Attendance:

Kim Langille

Committee Clerk

 

Philip Grassie

Legislative Counsel

Kim Adair
Auditor General

Emily Dickey
Audit Principal

 

Veronica Li

Audit Manager

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WITNESSES

 

 

Department of Education and Early Childhood Development

Tracey Barbrick - Deputy Minister

 

Tina Thibeau - Senior Executive Director, Corporate Services

Department of Public Works

Paul LaFleche - Executive Deputy Minister

 

Gerard Jessome - Chief Executive of Engineering, Building Infrastructure

 

Tonya McLellan - Executive Director, Design and Construction

Halifax Regional Centre for Education

Steve Gallagher - Regional Executive Director

 

Doug Hadley - Coordinator, Strategic Planning, Programs and Partnerships

 

 

 

 

HALIFAX, WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 15, 2025

 

STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

 

9:00 A.M.

 

CHAIR

Susan Leblanc

 

VICE-CHAIR

Marco MacLeod

 

 

THE CHAIR: Good morning, everyone. I'm going to call the meeting to order. It's a packed room. Happy to be back in the Committee Room. This is the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. I'm going to read the mandate of the committee:

 

The Public Accounts Committee is established for the purpose of reviewing the public accounts, the annual report or other report of the Auditor General and any other financial matters respecting the public funds of the Province.

 

My name is Susan Leblanc. I am the Chair of the committee. Just before we begin, I'd like to remind you to make sure your phone is on silent, and if we need to leave the building, to please exit through the doors onto Granville Street and then gather in Grand Parade.

 

I'm going to ask the committee members to introduce themselves. We'll begin with the member to my left, and I'm going to ask you to say your name, your constituency, and your preferred pronouns, please.

 

[The committee members introduced themselves.]

 

THE CHAIR: My pronouns are she/her. We also have officials from the Office of the Auditor General, Office of the Legislative Counsel, and Legislative Committees Office here today. On today's agenda, we have officials with us from the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development, the Department of Public Works, and the Halifax Regional Centre for Education. The topic is the 2025 Report of the Auditor General - School Capital Planning.

 

Welcome to everyone. I'm going to ask the witnesses now to introduce themselves and state your name, your organization or your position, and pronouns. We'll begin with Mr. Gallagher.

 

[The witnesses introduced themselves.]

 

THE CHAIR: I will invite Deputy Minister Barbrick to make opening remarks, then Mr. Jessome, and then Mr. Gallagher. How does that sound? Deputy Minister Barbrick.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: We're looking forward to the conversation. I am joined by Tina, who introduced herself. Also in the room from the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development is Tyler Bell behind me. Tyler is the project executive with capital and operations projects. Firstly, thank you to Auditor Kim Adair and her office for their important work and recommendations on Nova Scotia's school capital planning process.

 

The department has agreed with all of the recommendations and has already begun implementing recommendations as part of our commitment to continuous improvement and responsible stewardship of public resources. With the Departments of Public Works and Finance and Treasury Board, along with Regional Centres for Education and the Conseil scolaire acadien provincial organization, we are strengthening and modernizing the school capital planning process to ensure better transparency, equity, and evidence-based decision-making.

 

In recent years, we have made historic investments in school infrastructure. Through our more than $1-billion multi-year school capital plan, Nova Scotia is responding to immediate and future needs while providing safe, comfortable environments for our students and school staff. Right now, 19 new or replacement schools are part of our school capital plan at various stages in our capital process.

 

As we work with the Department of Public Works to advance new and replacement schools, we also invest in preserving, refreshing, and extending the life of existing schools. Annual funding to repair and refresh school buildings is now at $30 million - a major increase from just $6 million a few years ago. Over the past two years, this funding has supported more than 100 school maintenance projects across the province.

 

We also invest in modular classrooms to respond to immediate growth needs. While we build out our ambitious capital plan, modular classrooms let us act quickly so that we can address growth now and into the future.

 

Together with Regional Centres for Education, CSAP, and the Departments of Public Works and Finance and Treasury Board, we are planning and delivering the school capital projects that communities need most.

 

I assure you we share an unwavering commitment to responsible, equitable, and evidence-based planning and to advancing all school projects as quickly as possible.

 

THE CHAIR: Mr. Jessome, please.

 

GERARD JESSOME: Good morning. Thank you for the invite to speak with the committee today. I am the chief executive of Engineering, Building Infrastructure, with the Department of Public Works. I am joined here today by Paul LaFleche, the Executive Deputy Minister for Infrastructure; Tonya McLellan, Executive Director, Design and Construction; and behind us is Krista Ranahan, Director, Education Infrastructure.

 

Building and maintaining provincial infrastructure is a core function of the Department of Public Works. This includes managing schools in communities across the province. We work closely with the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development and the Regional Centres for Education to deliver schools that best meet the needs of students, teachers, and parents.

 

Once a community has been identified as requiring a new school, we work closely with the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development on the site selection process, design, and the construction process. We are also responsible for major renovation projects. These projects are guided by close collaboration with the Regional Centres for Education. By working together, we are able to use both our departments' skill sets: Education and Early Childhood Development's understanding of what Nova Scotia families need in a modern, accessible school and Public Works' knowledge of how to construct and deliver these projects.

 

Across the construction sector, we are seeing more challenges. These include inflation, labour disruptions, and supply chain issues. These problems can result in rising costs and longer timelines, but we work very hard to find solutions to limit the impact they have and keep these projects moving forward. We are always looking at ways to deliver the best value for Nova Scotians.

 

Thank you. I would be happy to answer the committee's questions.

 

THE CHAIR: Mr. Gallagher, please.

 

STEVE GALLAGHER: Good morning, Chair and members of the committee. Today, the HRCE is comprised of more than 60,000 students, 10,000 staff, and 136 schools organized in 18 families.

 

For the past several years, HRCE's story has been one of enrolment growth. Between 2017 and 2025, our enrolment has increased by more than 11,000 students. This rapid expansion represents a period of change greater than any other in my 28-year career as an educator in Halifax. It has not been without its challenges.

 

Fortunately, the HRCE has been able to lean on strong partnerships with the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development and the Department of Public Works to meet this challenge through a significant capital commitment. Since 2017, the HRCE has received eight new schools in communities across the HRM, with plans to open 11 more in the coming years. In addition, we have responded to this growth with the addition of 187 modular classrooms, which create annex facilities at, and 53 stand-alone portable classrooms.

 

Our partnership has also led to meaningful investment in our existing schools in recent years. Since 2021, more than $32 million has been invested in upgrades, including but not limited to heating systems, roof repairs and replacements, window and building upgrades, and accessibility improvements.

 

Today, our planning team - led by my colleague Doug Hadley, who is also here today - actively monitors our growth, identifies potential areas of concern, and makes recommendations to the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development, all with the goal of ensuring that there is space for every student in the HRCE to grow, to learn, and to thrive.

 

I look forward to answering any questions the committee may have regarding enrolment growth in the HRCE.

 

THE CHAIR: We're going to get into questioning now and I will say that there's a lot to talk about. If any MLAs ask a question and want to move on to their next question, please do flag me. I will call order and ask the witness to wrap up their current comment quickly, then we'll move on. Also, I will remind you that divide the time into 20 minutes and when those 20 minutes end, I have to call order. Pardon me in advance; I'll try not to be rude.

 

We'll begin questioning with MLA Wozney, please.

 

PAUL WOZNEY: This question is for the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development. The Auditor General's Report flagged a lack of transparency in how decisions around new growth investments are made. We know that the department in some manner of consultation with Regional Centres for Education and the CSAP identify potential school capital projects, but what remains unclear is how the minister uses that information to make recommendations to Cabinet which is where the funding decisions are actually made. To your knowledge, how does the minister decide which projects to bring forward to Cabinet and who at the local level helps inform this decision-making?

 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: Process-wise, there are two major steps in this process. First is the RCEs and CSAP identifying their primary needs based on all of the things that Mr. Gallagher outlined. They go through a screening process for all those needs on the capital repair side: rationale for the project, the condition of existing facilities, modulars and portable use, community impact, safety concerns, program needs. They identify as part of their screening process a whole filtering element. Then they bring their recommendations on what they need forward to the department.

 

The department then has a committee that goes through a scoring process, and that committee includes the department, the Department of Public Works, Department of Finance and Treasury Board. The projects that are identified or the needs that are identified are sifted and sorted between a low, medium, and high need based on all that evidence that's provided. Those recommendations are brought forward to the minister. The minister, based on the funding envelope that we have available, makes selections within that envelope and advances it to Cabinet.

 

PAUL WOZNEY: I heard an answer to most of my question. The one piece that remains outstanding is the question of how local voice is taken into consideration as process. I didn't hear any mention whatsoever of the role of local voice. The current minister has been loud and clear that the new era of enhanced parent voice in the school advisory council process; that doesn't appear in the verbiage put forward in the audit or in your answer.

 

My question again is: How does local voice show up in the planning process and the decision-making process about what gets approved by Cabinet when it comes to new growth builds?

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: One of the pieces - and I think the HRCE will talk about throughout the conversation here - is the identification of population growth expectations and enrolment trends. There's quite a significant software piece that identifies where those needs are. That's the information that goes into deciding how we use our capital envelope based on the needs for education across the province.

 

When projects are selected that are based on that evidence and the work continues, when the design steps - once a decision is made that you're going to build a new school or do a major renovation on a new school, there are a number of steps that then happen. There's the planning piece, then there's a site selection component that I'm sure the Department of Public Works will talk about, then there's the design of the school. That's where we create a school steering committee that is made up of parents, community, employees that primarily is led by the RCE and its construction. Also, part of that are the Departments of Education and Early Childhood Development and Public Works as the development of the design happens at the school level.

 

[9:15 a.m.]

 

Prior to that, the recommendations that come in to the RCE for decisions around what will advance is based on evidence of population need in the area and the facility conditions that they're dealing with. The community involvement happens at the stage where the design of a new or major renovation school is going to happen.

 

PAUL WOZNEY: This question is also for the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development. In June 2023, the department announced it would build four new-growth schools in HRM. Then in October 2023, HRCE submitted a rank list of six areas that needed new-growth schools. Why was the June 2023 announcement made before HRCE made clear to government what investments were needed and where?

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: HRCE identified six communities of need, primarily based on enrolment and growth. Between September 2024 and February 2025, all of those six projects were announced as proceeding.

 

PAUL WOZNEY: My question is about the announcement and the sequence of the announcement. I say again: In June 2023, the department announced it would build four new-growth schools in HRM. Several months later, in October 2023, HRCE submitted a rank list of six areas that needed new-growth schools. This is all documented in the Auditor General's Report. My question is: Why did the department's June announcement precede reception of the list of priority recommendations from HRCE?

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: One of the Auditor General's recommendations in this space of new-growth schools - I would say prior to the last five years - school announcements in a capital plan didn't exist. The Capital Plan identified in 2019 a list of priority schools based on various things, and since then, we've continued to look at capital needs of the school, especially with the growth that Mr. Gallagher identified in HRCE.

 

The Auditor General's comments around the replacement schools - there's a really good process on replacement schools. All of the dimensions around the condition of the existing school, the use of modulars, community impact, occupational health and safety, all of those things . . .

 

THE CHAIR: Order, please. MLA Wozney.

 

PAUL WOZNEY: I'd like to ask a couple of questions to HRCE on this particular line. I'm wondering if someone from HRCE can walk us through HRCE's side of the timeline that resulted in you putting forward six areas for new-growth schools in October 2023. I'm wondering if you can outline what was requested by the department regarding that list and when it was requested.

 

THE CHAIR: Mr. Gallagher.

 

STEVE GALLAGHER: I appreciate the question. There are a couple nuances here that may be lost in the way that this work happens. There is a significant back and forth between HRCE and the department. At the time that the June announcement was made, that was based on conversations and meetings that were ongoing. We had identified that these were four areas where we needed schools.

 

Later on in the fall, we were asked about priority, and this is where I think it gets conflated. There's announcement and there's construction - and the two are different. Construction and the timeline have an awful lot to do with acquiring land. I don't want to speak for the Department of Public Works, but my understanding of the circumstance is that they were slow-walking it so they could acquire land, and not have an announcement made and see real estate prices go up because it was government shopping. As a taxpayer, I'm very happy to hear that.

 

We had identified the four quite readily through internal conversation. We were then asked to prioritize what the sequence of build would be. We were actually asked for five and we snuck a sixth on there, identifying that, “Since you're asking, here's another area that we've surfaced of need.” That's when we provided that documentation. To go back to the beginning, ongoing conversations were happening on a regular basis. I was part of them; my colleague here, Doug, who leads our planning team was deeply involved in the back and forth.

 

PAUL WOZNEY: Further for HRCE, the Auditor General in her report specifically flagged the very sound, robust business case that came along with the pitch for the new-growth school in Timberlea but noted the absence of similar rigour in the five other schools on HRCE's list. Four of those schools were noted as having very little by way of substantial supporting evidence for their placement on a priority list. I'm wondering if you can speak to why a business case was submitted to EECD for the new-growth school in Timberlea but not for any of the other five locations.

 

STEVE GALLAGHER: The difference there represents the evolution of our process. It has everything to do with the fact that, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, our growth exploded after COVID, really. The urgency with which we were working got ahead of process, and by the time we got to nailing down the details of what will be the new school in Brunello, we were asked to actually put together a comprehensive report. We were happy to do that and it was easy to do because the evidence strongly supports a school in that area, but it came at the end of a process that was an awful lot of back and forth. The recognition, I believe - I wasn't in the room but was requested to do it. The recognition was around putting a solid foundation in place going forward.

 

The growth we've experienced in the last five years is certainly without precedent in Halifax, probably without precedent in Nova Scotia. Adding 11,000 students since 2017 is the equivalent of adding two of the other regions to our system. There was a genuine lean in with our partners to solve the problem, but as we worked through, we got to a place where we needed a more solid foundation. That's what that briefing note represents.

 

PAUL WOZNEY: I would like to go back to EECD. Thousands of new homes and apartments are currently under construction in Dartmouth, and schools in the community are already busting at the seams. The same is true in Bedford. Why did Dartmouth and Bedford get announced months later than the other four schools on the list submitted by HRCE?

 

THE CHAIR: Is that for Mr. Gallagher?

 

PAUL WOZNEY: That's for EECD.

 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick, please.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: Mr. Gallagher was hitting on a pretty critical point there in terms of growth in general. The Auditor General's comments were in the space of - for replacement schools, you've got a pretty good process. For these new-growth schools, it's loose. Given that prior to 2020, nobody ever predicted that we were going to be talking about growth schools, growth nursing homes - we were not projecting this kind of population growth. Mr. Gallagher is bang on in the comment that we were responding to unexpected growth the likes of which the province hadn't seen, and our process was lagging practice. Those are the things that Auditor General Adair commented on, and we 100 percent accept and are working on that now.

 

Those growth schools: of the six that were identified by HRCE, all on enrolment, all on their heat maps, all on what we know is to be growth in the province, those six were identified. In the span of five months, all six were announced. There are a number of reasons involved in that. There's land to be explored, there is risk that once we identify locations, land price goes up. There are a number of levers being factored in. In five months, all six were announced. They were all critical-need areas based on population growth, and within six months - which really is a bit of semantics about which one came first - all six were announced.

 

The Auditor General's recommendations around tightening up new-growth school process, 100 precent, we're on it. We get it. We weren't prepared because nobody was prepared for this kind of growth. Now we're playing catch-up with some process to nail that all down. The most important part is six schools - six communities - were in critical need, and all six are proceeding and have been announced.

 

PAUL WOZNEY: I would say that no one questions the need for schools in the six identified communities. The question raised by the Auditor General's Report is the lack of process that's fair and transparent that demonstrates there's an evidence-based decision-making process at work in the public interest. Each of these projects is in the neighbourhood - or greater - of $100 million. Expenditure of this kind of money merits the faith of the public that people are making decisions based on evidence. That's what's missing here.

 

Anybody who lives in Bedford or Dartmouth would tell you that the explosive population growth that we're experiencing now was clearly on the horizon at the point that these schools were announced. They were already dealing with those pressures. I taught in one of those communities; I have many friends who live in the other. So the idea that it came out of nowhere, I think strains a little bit of reason.

 

I want to pivot to a question for the EECD about St. Joseph's-Alexander McKay. Parents in north end Halifax have been busing their elementary-aged children to a school that's more than half an hour outside of their community since 2021. They were told that this would be a temporary two-year arrangement, with the new St. Joseph's-Alexander McKay school opening in 2023. Can the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development speak to how this ball has been dropped so many times to date?

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: I will start, and then I expect some of my colleagues might have additions that will deepen that understanding. In 2018, SJAM as we call it was announced. At that time, it was planned to be a major renovation. In 2019, it was identified that a renovation wasn't going to cut it; it needed a fully new construction. In 2020, COVID hit. I know it's easy for us to forget now, but the entire globe was shut down for the better part of a year, and then following that was a major supply chain void.

 

In the middle of all this - and it can't be discounted, because we all lived it at home; I spent time getting a million people vaccinated during that time - that was a massive disruption to everything. Looking back on timelines, we cannot forget that reality - because we all lived it. So in 2020, COVID hit. Then, because of federal money that came in 2021, it was decided that a child care facility would be added to SJAM, which meant the design had to be refreshed to accommodate the addition of a child care facility.

 

Also in that time - and again, my Department of Public Works colleagues who project-managed this whole show, unexpectedly - a whole lot of things had to happen on that site, including bedrock was in places it wasn't expected to be, water lines and sewer lines had to be completely moved outside of what the original design was, and of course, it has been a major disruption to the community and those families. We understand the pressure that has created for them and feel the urgency to get this school ready to go. But from 2018 to now, there have been some major events as part of that construction that meant it has morphed multiple times, and that has taken time.

 

[9:30 a.m.]

 

THE CHAIR: With a minute and a half, MLA Wozney.

 

PAUL WOZNEY: Parents of students in St. Joseph's-Alexander McKay Elementary are aware of all of these realities. What they're disappointed by is the lack of communication about their new community school's progress and when it will be finished, and not being able to understand why there have been delays.

 

In the Auditor General's Report it's noted that the department had committed to improving information on their website by September 2025, yet clear dates like when school projects were approved and when they will be open and their current status remain missing. When will parents get the detailed updates that they deserve?

 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick with 30 seconds, please.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: Certainly, there has been an effort between our department, the Department of Public Works, and HRCE to ensure that the families are receiving updates on the progress of that project. The website has had some updates since the Auditor General's recommendations. More are under way and should be available in the upcoming weeks.

 

THE CHAIR: Order, please. We will move on to MLA Mombourquette with 20 minutes.

 

HON. DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I'll start us off before I pass it over to my colleague. I appreciate everybody being here today to be part of this committee.

 

To Mr. Gallagher, this is something that's come up - I've received a lot of comments and response from local companies around the province who are in various businesses when it comes to construction. They can provide various aspects of these builds, and there's a lot of taxpayers' money being spent on the construction of these schools.

 

My first question is: When you're building these schools, are you sourcing local the best you can? Are you looking at it through that lens? There are some great companies around the province that could probably help along the journey of building this infrastructure. That's my first question.

 

THE CHAIR: Is that for Mr. Gallagher, or would it be for Mr. Jessome?

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Mr. Jessome, the Department of Public Works.

THE CHAIR: Mr. Jessome.

 

GERARD JESSOME: For sure. We use an open and transparent procurement process. It's competitive. Competition is what gets us the best prices. It's open for all who can provide that service.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I can appreciate that response. The government talks a lot about supporting local and supporting Canadian, and how we have to do whatever we can to support one another. It is my hope that when all of these are under construction, we're using that lens and we're engaging with companies. I know companies myself that I've talked to that haven't had the opportunity to engage in the conversation. I think that there's a great opportunity to support Nova Scotia businesses that are employing people who are living in this province each and every day. We should be looking to them as much as we can when we look at this construction. As I said, it's significant. I was involved with it a bit too, in my time with the department.

 

My next question is for Deputy Minister Barbrick. You talk about projections. One question I have: What are the future projections? It's true, in 2021 and COVID, people from all over the world started coming to Nova Scotia. We've seen the population increase tenfold.

 

Now we're in a situation where indications are that that is not going to be the case moving forward. How do you adjust to that? What are your thoughts around what the future holds for enrolment trends? In HRCE particularly, because we're talking about it in this report, but across the province, do you feel the same growth is coming? Or do you feel like we're going to pivot a bit?

 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: Ten months on the job at this department, and one of the things I've been really, really impressed by is the use of this Univerus Baragar Systems software tool that's used for enrolment predictions. I'll talk a little bit about it in theory, but Mr. Gallagher and his team and certainly Doug Hadley use this tool every day. They provide intel to the department on the use of that tool.

 

It does a number of things. It factors in all the data in PowerSchool - if you have kids in school, you probably look at PowerSchool - the provincial birth registry, the Canada child benefit, census data for women between the ages of 20 and 34, and new housing projects. This software tool, or heat maps - they talk about the generation of heat maps - really is a pretty sophisticated way of projecting what's coming. Of course, it didn't project the post-COVID bump that I think nobody was quite ready for, but it's a pretty sophisticated tool and it's active all of the time. If you're interested in that, I'm sure my colleague down there can talk about its daily use more than I can.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: Just a follow-up: Does the department look at that projection? We've seen the bump in COVID. Governments have made decisions around infrastructure based on that, but all the trends are saying that could change. Is the department looking at that potential, too, when you're setting new policies and you're looking at the report? Does the department still see that same strong growth in HRCE and across the province?

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: The projections right now are cooling growth. Still growth, but a cooling growth which, frankly, would be a bit of a chance to catch up on some of these projects and move them forward. We do expect Nova Scotia to have some continued growth over time, but not what it's been for the last five years.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: My next question would be, I assume, to the deputy minister but the Department of Public Works and HRCE may want to jump in. Child care was mentioned as well and SJAM. You're talking about adding a child care centre there. This is a hot conversation across the province - child care - and getting to that target of the average of $10 a day by next year. In all your construction projects, are you looking at adding child care centres to them? Is that part of the decision-making process around any decisions around new construction and what currently is in place, whether it's a new school or an addition to an existing school?

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: Absolutely, you would see if you ran down the website now on the 19 projects that are under way that a large portion of them have a child care facility included. We are assessing through our child care team with every school whether there's need in that community or if that need is already met. There's some pretty good data around demand at community level for child care needs very similar to census data, various databases around what we expect to be available. The standard now is if child care is needed in that community, we are incorporating a child care facility.

 

I will add the caveat that we, of course, have an agreement with the federal government around some of those capital funds. So far, those child care facilities have been part of that capital fund, so we'll continue to negotiate with the federal government going forward on the ability to do that.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I don't know if I missed this. My next question is around SJAM. Is there a date for opening?

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: As of right now, we know that it will be during the school year. If you ever drive by that project, there's lots happening on a daily basis in that facility. The date is not finalized just yet.

 

THE CHAIR: MLA Rankin.

 

HON. IAIN RANKIN: Thank you to all of you for being here today on an important topic. I do appreciate the responsiveness of HRCE on looking at the new school planning for Timberlea and, first of all, purchasing the land which happened in May of 2024. I would say the Timberlea school should have been announced previously than September, so that's my first question. Why did the department wait from the period of May and then do the announcement September 2024? Was there a direction from the Premier's office or some other source - the minister - to say now we're ready on the eve of an election or what? Why wait that extra five months to actually start moving forward with the planning? I will ask what the timeline is now for design tendering and construction of that school in Timberlea.

 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: I can start with the first question and then I'll turn it over to my Department of Public Works colleagues for the second question. Again, the HRCE recommendations around six different communities were received. The financial position of the Province is assessed as part of its larger Capital Plan, and in the span of five months between September and February, all six in the highest communities were identified and announced. I think, in terms of current status, I can defer.

 

THE CHAIR: Ms. McLellan.

 

TONYA MCLELLAN: As to the timeline, we have engaged with the collaborative design build group. Schematic design now is currently under way. That process will take probably about a year, but until we get to the end of it, until we get all the details, the time for completion of that facility is still not 100 percent being able to lock down that date. As we start to move further through the process and get more into detailed design, we'll be able to comment on that further.

 

IAIN RANKIN: As a follow-up and just relative to the report from the Auditor General, Recommendation 1.2 does recommend, in consultation with the Department of Public Works, that the department work to resolve delays in construction at schools. The SJAM, as it's called, has gone through significant delays. Some schools went through multiple years before they even started construction. Some of that was land related. Timberlea has land ready to go, services in, everything. I just want to ask: How does the department change the procedures to ensure schools like the one in Timberlea will be delivered on time and on budget?

 

TONYA MCLELLAN: We have been working quite collaboratively to streamline this process. We've pivoted with respect to how we're actually contracting and procuring. One of those methods is that we've moved to a collaborative design build process where we engage with a designer and a contractor at the very beginning, so we're able to really optimize the design and look for efficiencies as we do that.

 

Other things that have been happening as well with our partners at EECD is we've been developing some very good guidelines. We've been looking at school planning guidelines as well and just processes that we can repeat and give us a clearer path forward as we work through the number of schools that we have to deliver.

 

IAIN RANKIN: You have the data that's pretty detailed on kids coming up through the system in terms of an approximate timeline when the school will actually open for families. We have a process around planning that's tightening up. We have a planning website that shows some details, but really the timeline is very vague. How frequently will the progress updates happen for community in terms of budgets, timeline, and milestones, so that local families can plan ahead?

 

TONYA MCLELLAN: With respect to the timelines, that's not really something that our department would communicate. We do communicate frequently on the process with our partners from EECD, but that would be their responsibility to work with the regional centres to provide those updates to communities. 

 

THE CHAIR: Do you want to go to the Department of Edvanced Education and Childhood Development? MLA Rankin.

 

IAIN RANKIN: Just in the interest of time, my colleague mentioned child care. In the announcement in Timberlea, there was a commitment for a child care component in the building. There are wait-lists at all of our private centres. The deal was focused on non-profit centres. Prime opportunity to start tackling that wait-list in the BLT area, as it's known. Question on that is if you can add the child care roll-out and if there's a potential interim period. We're talking, obviously, a few years at least to build the centre. What's the plan to help with the child care wait-list, along with the previous question around the school timeline?

 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: I didn't actually come with lists of child care information today, so I might have to follow that up, but certainly, the child care team, as part of the 9,500 additional spaces, of which we're about a little over 7,000 toward now, have a number of capital projects that are in various states of completion. Most successfully, we've had a huge increase in our before- and afterschool care programs with all our RCE partners. In HRCE alone this year, we added a significant number of before- and after-school spaces, so that area is like a full-court press between brand new under-six full-time child care, as well as before- and afterschool efforts.

 

I don't have the list for your area today on the child care projects, but there is a pretty comprehensive website with all of those capital projects identified there around additional capacity that's coming online, and in addition to that, our regular work - I think we added about a thousand spaces this year in before- and afterschool care across the province alone.

 

[9:45 a.m.]

 

For those children over six who are in school, that's always a priority for us - to have the children move as little as they can in the run of a day, and then under six, of course, is full-time care.

 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick, if you could forward that list to the committee clerk, that would be great.

 

MLA Rankin.

 

IAIN RANKIN: You may not have all this information, but maybe it's also a follow-up that we can get - the breakdown of the cost into this project - a major project. The full total on these six new schools is some $600 million or $700 million. This one's over $100 million. I think that's the best way to get at where some of this money is funnelling to help support the build, to help support a component of the build for child care. Maybe somebody can help me break this down in terms of the money spent - if land's included in that total, construction costs, contingencies, and all the rest.

 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick or Mr. Jessome? Mr. Jessome.

 

GERARD JESSOME: We're continuing through the design process, so we don't have a final number that we can share at this point in time, plus there will be some tendering going forward to get folks engaged in the construction process. We really can't share that number at this point in time, but we closely monitor costs throughout the design process.

 

IAIN RANKIN: I think an important question in terms of process and learning from Timberlea, where the Province spent $16 million on land - which is significant, but that's what the market value was. I'm not challenging the amount. But the Province has now taken over the role, in short order, of chief planner in HRM with special planning areas, and now some interim areas - looking at where growth centres are.

 

What is the department doing, particularly in areas where they have inserted themselves as overruling HRM? Not only that, but what is the Province doing to ensure we don't get to a point where we're catching up with the growth and requiring in, I would think, the development agreement for – The Links at Brunello was smart to set aside land and not build and eventually sell it to the Province. But in terms of the public interest, which all of you are tasked with, what is the Province doing to ensure that there is dedicated land space that the developer can actually put up so that they don't just get approval for all of the new units? We do this for transportation, for new roads - financing all that stuff.

 

What is the Province going to do to ensure that we have space for kids to go to school in these new, significantly large developments across HRM?

 

GERARD JESSOME: Growth has been incredible for the last number of years. We have to get out in front of that. We work very closely with developers and with the municipality to identify growth areas in the city where there is potential - where the housing is going to go, where people are going to live. Based on that information and working closely with developers, we do have a strategic envelope of funding for land purchases in advance for public infrastructure. It could be schools, it could be recreational centres, could be long-term care, could be housing. We try to get out in front. That's the same thing as what happened with Timberlea. We're working with the developer, working with the municipality and the HRCE and our partners at the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development to identify these as a growth area - yes, we need some land. Let's get in.

 

When we do purchase property, we do our due diligence, and we pay fair market value.

 

THE CHAIR: MLA Rankin with one minute and 30 seconds.

 

IAIN RANKIN: Maybe I'll ask the question again. So the department is not, or the Province is not, considering mandating land for things of public interest like a school or something else. You're just talking about land that you may purchase; you're not looking at potentially mandating that land would go towards a public interest the way that park space is sometimes given minimum requirement. I think that would be something that would help plan for future communities.

 

GERARD JESSOME: It's all about the early discussions on understanding where these developers are planning to invest. We do work very closely with them on securing property that could be used for public infrastructure.

 

THE CHAIR: MLA Rankin, you have 40 seconds.

 

IAIN RANKIN: I think in terms of planning, in terms of getting the best infrastructure in place for families - schools are one thing, but there are other things that developers should be putting - if the Province is going to rubber-stamp development, then we should be getting something out of it. I'll just end there.

 

THE CHAIR: We'll move on to MLA Timmins, please.

 

DIANNE TIMMINS: I do appreciate the details that you've already discussed regarding the process. A $1-billion-a-year capital plan is not a small bit of change to manage within the department and to do what you're trying to do with 19 new and replacement schools.

I want to move on to the Department of Public Works. You've mentioned that there are construction challenges - actually, it was more Ms. Barbrick who had mentioned that - that have caused some delays. There's already a lot of construction happening within the HRM right now, whether it's housing or hospitals. How is the construction industry keeping up with the demand?

 

THE CHAIR: Mr. Jessome.

 

GERARD JESSOME: It's incredible. It's great to be part of this. It's really a construction boom. The last I've heard, there are over 40 cranes in HRM here, plus a lot of construction across the province, really. It's challenging, but I think we're partnering with the industry, like Ms. McLellan stated, with the collaborative design builds. We work with contractors and consultants, bringing a constructability lens into the design process. They obviously have the general contractors who build schools and bigger infrastructure and have the insight that can help us throughout the design process to make sure that it's buildable, for one thing.

 

Then the investment in skilled trades and the development over skilled trades in the province. I think the government has made a lot of very good moves that are very positive in the industry to increase the capacity of our skilled trades.

 

DIANNE TIMMINS: This is for Department of Education and Early Childhood Development. I understand that more than 30 schools have skilled trade centres. Could you speak to what exactly a skilled trade centre is and its importance during this time, like today? Where are we faced with the construction industry in high demand? Also, could you speak to how many more schools have the available space, and if they're being considered for a skilled trade centre?

 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: I can start, but I think adding to that would be Mr. Gallagher because of some of what HRCE has done in the skilled trades in the last while. There's been so much that has happened in the last five years in skilled trades in school systems. We now have upwards of 20,000 students exposed to various types of skilled trades work. We have a few programs that are in pilot around accelerated placement for students who in Grade 12 start to attend NSCC in the second semester and get credit for essentially the first half of their first-year pre-apprenticeship. We've got two pilots happening right now on that.

 

Skilled trade centres:  I think we've got about 32 skilled trade centres in the school. They literally are a shop. The students are working in the shop with teachers, and they're exposed to primarily construction trades. Some of these - in fact, the one that you may choose to speak about in Bedford West - you can actually see that things can be built there. Students are doing that work themselves with instruction and teachers, and it's exposing them to the trades in a way that got lost over the years, so reacclimatizing.

 

We also have the 32 skilled trade centres, but there are a number of other programs now in schools from Grade 7 and up where skilled trades are introduced as part of the curriculum and part of the pathways and journeys on to skilled trades. I think the number a few years ago of exposure to skilled trades for students was about 6,000 students in Nova Scotia through various courses; we're up around 20,000 right now. The impact on students, the enthusiasm of the teachers in that space, and the students' pathway on to post-secondary that includes a skilled trade is pretty impressive. If you're interested, I think Mr. Gallagher could talk about that at the school level and what an impact that's having.

 

THE CHAIR: Mr. Gallagher.

 

STEVE GALLAGHER: In the HRCE, we have six skilled trades centres, but at the Grade 10 level in all of our high schools, we offer the introductory course. All of our skilled trades centres offer construction and then one other specialty, so there's a real focus on the construction industry which certainly ties in nicely to what we're talking about today. The other areas of focus in addition to construction are culinary arts, manufacturing, and transportation.

 

In each of our six locations, you can take those two specialties through Grades 11 and 12, and you are fast-tracked into post-secondary and/or industry. It's a remarkable and powerful on-ramp into those industries where we need folks. The people who are teaching there are specialists in the area. They're not the typical social studies teacher like me, so they offer real experience for kids. For example, if you go to the Cole Harbour skilled trades centre, you'll see incredible works of art that are all done in what we call hot labs. Welding is happening. Kids are learning how to weld in the skilled trades centre that we have at Bayview Education Centre where we have construction, but we also have culinary arts. We have a restaurant-quality kitchen and a chef who is instructing the kids on that level of culinary arts, getting them ready to move into a career in that space. You see that kind of expertise and dedication in all six of the areas, so there's been a real commitment there. I would say it's - certainly for Halifax; I can't speak for the province - for Halifax, it's been a tremendous success for us.

 

DIANNE TIMMINS: I'd like to move it on to my colleagues as well so they'll have some time.

 

THE CHAIR: MLA Outhit, please.

 

TIM OUTHIT: That's my cue. Everybody has thanked you for being here this morning, and I want to thank you as well. I also want to thank you for what you do on a daily basis. Almost everybody at this table at some point has done something to help me - either in this role or in my previous role - to help constituents. It is kind of amazing. I used to tease my colleagues on council. I'd say, “During my time, we built two towns in Bedford. We built the town of West Bedford and we built the town of Larry Uteck.” With those, of course, comes incredible needs for infrastructure of all sorts, including schools.

 

I look at what you've dealt with: the new programs, the pre-Primary, the preschool, the unprecedented growth that many of you have mentioned, the aging facilities, the introduction of special planning areas, and now the announcement of Shannon Park. What's that going to do to you? That's something you might not have predicted a year or two ago. When the feds say we want affordable housing of a significant size in Shannon Park, it's reasonable to assume that there'd be some education requirements. You kind of play Whac-A-Mole, although apparently you have a software program that helps you play Whac-A-Mole. I used to just think it was all Steve and Doug, but it's nice that there is a software program to help you because it's not easy. We've thrown a lot of change at you.

 

My question is: What's being done to improve the condition of the existing schools? There's an example of that in Bedford, as well, with the heating system. What factors contribute to the order of the improvements?

 

Then, specifically, there were 10 schools that were indicated as being in critical condition. I'd like to get an idea at these schools: What's being done to get them out of that status? Do they come out of that status once the improvements are made? Just help us understand a little bit about the ongoing maintenance challenges, but also what's being done about these 10 schools that are in critical condition.

 

THE CHAIR: MLA Outhit, we might take the first two questions first - that was about four questions in one. Just to make sure that we get the answers - maybe you all figured it out, but I think what I heard was: The 10 schools are the focus. How are they being prioritized and how are they going to be fixed? Who wants to answer that?

 

Deputy Minister Barbrick.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: I will start. Thank you for the question. Lots of folks here could add dimension to that. One of the observations in the audit was that we have not yet completed all of the facility condition assessments for every one of the schools - just shy of 300 schools in the province. We have completed, in a year, 250 of them. The ones that were not complete primarily have either been announced for replacement, or are newer schools, or are just over the five-year assessment window. They're to be reassessed every three to five years. That really does a very detailed assessment of every piece of infrastructure from its interior to its exterior, to a big, long list of roofs, mechanical, sitework, and assesses the school on probably about a hundred different dimensions and scores it.

 

One thing that's happened in the last two years is our capital repair fund increased from $6 million to $30 million. Recognizing that as important as the new shiny builds, is maintaining schools in good condition over time. So that $30 million a year has allowed the department and its partner RCEs and CSAP to do about 50 projects a year. So instead of patchwork, actually doing some comprehensive improvements.

 

[10:00 a.m.]

 

An important thing to note about the facility condition assessment is that it informs both repair work, as well as decisions on capital replacement projects. When a score is given and then a roof is replaced, you ideally would snap your fingers and have a new score. It's not quite that literal. The assessment is done every three to five years to inform where we put that repair money. In the last two years, we have completed about a hundred projects to get these schools all in better condition.

 

The specific 10 that were referenced in the audit as having the highest facility condition scores have all had or have under way in 2025-26 major repair projects happening. I can literally list them off, but I'll give you just a flavour. Alderney Elementary in Dartmouth - a new roof and repaving of some broken up asphalt. That results in a higher score, so that brings that condition out of the bottom 10 into better condition. Big Tancook Island Elementary School - windows are being replaced, siding is being replaced. That brings that up.

 

It's important to note that none of the schools are unsafe. The dimensions of the assessment are about condition of the school, not safety of the school. If safety issues arise, those are addressed as part of our in-year. We need to resolve those. Caudle Park Elementary - some brick is being repaired, an electrical system is being modernized. A school in Lower Sackville - new roof, new windows. Crichton Park Elementary - roof. John MacNeil Elementary - roof and brick. The facility condition assessments tell us what the shape is. We then direct our funds that way with our partners, and that would inherently bring the score up. But the score doesn't get redone after that project. It goes back into the cycle for the three to five years.

 

Of the remaining schools that the Auditor General identified that did not have their facility condition completed, they are under completion this year, so they'll be done. Certainly, HRCE has many of these projects, given the sheer number of schools they have. They, through our application process - each RCE and CSAP submits their priority items for capital repair work. That's all assessed by a committee and scored, and the envelop of money is allocated based on that. Throughout the year, Tyler, who I introduced in my opening, is constantly assessing those projects to see if there's any slippage that can be reallocated to another project, or if the price comes in lower than expected. We make sure that that $30-million envelope is fully utilized in the span of the year, and if a project is identified that can't be completed in that year, it gets bumped forward to the next project. The goal is to spend every dollar of the $30 million in that year.

 

THE CHAIR: MLA Taggart.

TOM TAGGART: Much of what I wanted to ask has been addressed, but I want to go to Chief Executive Jessome there. Deputy Minister Barbrick took us through the SJAM up to 2021 or 2022 to where it really got into construction. She spoke of all the challenges. I know that it's been a cause of a lot of concern and angst for the community. I understand that. I kind of wonder if you could run us through a little bit about the challenges you faced as the builder, so to speak, when it got on your plate - the challenges and things that you've done to try to expedite the process and make that happen.

 

THE CHAIR: Mr. Jessome.

 

GERARD JESSOME: Look, we're very disappointed too that it never opened as scheduled, but we're working to try to open it as quickly as possible. The contractor's been doing a terrific job working in this market. There have been well over a hundred trades on average on site every day doing work. That's been expediting the work. I think to say that in the city, with the robust construction market that we now have, that is pretty good. They've been doing a lot - extra overtime hours as well, bringing trades in on the weekends, extra-long hours in the evenings.

 

A lot has been done to try to speed it up and to make sure that we're able to open it. We had a labour disruption in the summer that affected some critical path items, which affected the schedule again. But we're working every day. We work with the contractor. We meet with the contractor to find solutions.

 

THE CHAIR: MLA Wong.

 

HON. BRIAN WONG: Thank you for being here. One of the things I want to congratulate you on is the use of modulars right now. Modulars go up fast. We have one in Fall River at Georges P. Vanier Junior High. I've toured it. I've heard from teachers and parents and students, and it's a fast way, when we have population growth, to get things done well. I believe that is certainly done well.

 

There is no doubt that schools age. They absolutely need replacement. They need to be fixed. They need all of these things. But I think we need to understand, at the crux of all of this is how students learn, and facilities do not teach students. Teachers teach students. Students learn. Hopefully teachers are teaching the way that students do learn.

 

I really want to say that a lot of the conversation has been very Halifax-centric. When I hear a comment about “My goodness, students are being bused 30 minutes” - it's like, that's very Halifax-centric - very city-centric. If we go to rural Nova Scotia, it's not uncommon for students to be on a bus for an hour and a half each way. I really want to put that out there as well.

 

The priority of this government is education itself - in how kids learn, on getting the best teachers possible into the system, to get more teachers - quality teachers - into the system. That's why there's been expansion in teacher programming and a lot of supports for our schools to do that.

 

THE CHAIR: Order. MLA Wong, can you go to questions, please?

 

BRIAN WONG: I'm framing my question. Thank you very much.

 

The classrooms today feel very different and schools look very different. How have things changed in school design and construction with the way that we now understand students learn and teachers teach?

 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: If you haven't had a reason to see one of these modular facilities, they really are anywhere from four to 12 classrooms. They're not what we think about, or what I thought about coming into this job - very different, portables and modulars. I think that when people hear about the 113 modulars put in place over the last three years, they are thinking about portables, of which there are some. We've only added a couple of portables in the last few years. It's primarily modulars. Modulars really are like mini schools. I couldn't believe when I was first in one - that it's considered a modular - because to me it basically looks like a small school with full classrooms, fully digitally enabled, and washrooms. They're not at all what I had in mind. The use of those has been a good alternative when we've had the explosion of population that we had, which was unpredictable. It's not a long-term goal, but it's an excellent interim solution and they probably will be in place, and could be in place, for a long time.

 

There's a standard in place . . .

 

THE CHAIR: I'm sorry. Order, please. We might be able to get back to that later. We're going to move onto MLA Wozney, please. The second round is 12 minutes.

 

PAUL WOZNEY: I want to direct this question to the Department of Public Works. SJAM was announced in 2018, and it still isn't ready. We've just heard from Deputy Minister Barbrick that there's no firm date for the opening of that facility, yet the department was somehow able to purchase land off of Larry Uteck Boulevard in 2019 and have a pair of new schools open at a time of concurrent challenges with the SJAM build for the start of the school year in 2023. I'm wondering if the Department of Public Works can explain such different outcomes in communities that are barely a city-centred 20-minute drive apart.

 

THE CHAIR: Mr. Jessome, please.

 

GERARD JESSOME: Construction on this school, as Deputy Minister Barbrick stated, went through a number of processes. It initially started out as a renovation, an ANA. We evaluated it for an ANA. It seemed better to build a new school that would serve the community better. We got well into the design, then a growing community and different needs in the community were identified as child care. We added the additional scope after, and we had to go back to redesign. So the length of the design process and construction were meeting challenges of the industry - trying to get with everything else that's going on in the city, trying to meet those, and make sure that we keep enough skilled trades on the site to keep moving.

 

As I said, this summer, we experienced some major challenges - labour disruption which affected some critical path items. I think we went through a number of different things. COVID was part of the process as well. I guess we had a number of different challenges throughout the years on this one. Like I said, we certainly understand that we didn't open initially as committed, but we're working hard with all partners to get it to open very soon.

 

PAUL WOZNEY: I'll simply note as part of this hearing that the challenges facing the SJAM build are equivalent to the challenges facing the double West Bedford build. That was a project where the concept changed a couple of times in the process. It was originally supposed to be a P-to-8 building, and then the high school building was added to that project. That's another project where things pivoted partway through the process, yet 20 minutes down the road in a very different community, a very different result was realized.

 

For parents who continue to not have a firm opening date, all of the reasons why it can't be delivered on time I think are now clear, but we have a group of kids who, for the fourth year, are busing half an hour outside of a community they don't live in. That's not normal for them. It's a tough pill to swallow with no clear end in sight to that process.

 

I'd like to move ahead to some other questions for EECD. We've heard that the department relies on enrolment projections when considering new-growth schools. What we haven't heard is how the department considers classroom caps. Parents in Halifax have expressed concern on multiple occasions now that within a year of either new replacement schools or new-growth schools opening, they've needed modular or portable classrooms in short order.

 

I'm wondering if you can outline why the department doesn't incorporate class caps as part of its consideration in determining the right number of classrooms, not only to accommodate the present needs of school communities but the projectable future needs of community.

 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick with seven minutes.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: Okay, a couple of things - I'm going to try to stay coherent here. The school build standard - the DC350 Part 2: Educational Facilities Design Requirements Manual - has a number of elements that determine the size of a school. Included in that are the programs that will be delivered in that school, the projected enrolment per grade level, the calculation of specialty spaces, the number of classrooms per grade level, and any additional space provisions that are required. That is essentially a formula, or as I like to call it, a numbers machine. The information about the school and the projected enrolment runs the square footage of the school. It's not an “I don't decide; these folks don't decide,” it's actually a formula including class caps. It's literally however many kids are projected 10 years out divided by class caps determines how many classrooms need to be in the school.

 

[10:15 a.m.]

 

In the reality of the enrolment growth and the lack of capital infrastructure that had been invested for many years - a perfect storm - things were already backlogged. Then we had a big population growth, and we are now playing catch-up. In that standard includes the size of a school that is the target given best evidence around what's the best environment for children to learn. Because I spent four years in the nursing home business, it's 144 beds - no more than 144 beds because it changes the feeling of community. For schools, that standard is 500 children for an elementary school, 700 for a junior high or what we called a junior high, and 1,000 for a high school.

 

Those are the targets and the goal. There are sometimes some fluctuations on use of existing schools based on configuration or need to deal with boundaries or where one school might be getting to its max, but that's what establishes the new standard for the build.

 

A couple of things that I need to finish the point on. Two perfect storms: we were backlogged with school builds prior to 2020, and then a massive population growth. The things we have done are the 19 new builds, five of which opened last year; $40 million in modulars in the last three years; $30 million in capital repair; and getting these schools built and open. In the meantime, my colleague at HRCE and every other RCE and CSAP are doing boundary reviews, reconfiguration where they have to in order to utilize the capacity that we have while we play catch-up in all these other ways.

 

THE CHAIR: I'm just going to ask committee members to keep side conversations to a minimum because it's very distracting while I'm trying to listen to the witnesses' answers. Thank you.

 

Go ahead, MLA Wozney.

 

PAUL WOZNEY: I just want to ask a question about decision-making about portables and modulars. In the Auditor General's Report, there are three buckets, if you will: there are new-growth schools, replacement schools, and major renovations. In our prep meeting for this, the Auditor General commented that really a fourth bucket probably is warranted, and that's the bucket for portables and modulars, given that $162 million was spent on HRCE portables and modulars during the period of the audit. That amounts to at least one brand-new school built, yet what we learned is that this effectively is a lump-sum pot of money and there's no clarity around decisions about where modulars are going to be built and how those decisions are made.

 

I'm wondering what the department can say around enhancing transparency and communication about decision-making regarding the placement of modulars and portables. I want to be clear that I don't question the need for portables or modulars. I've taught in both settings as a teacher. I recognize that they're an interim solution to a larger problem. They're not illegitimate decisions to be made.

 

My question is: How will the department act to be transparent about decisions about what schools get modulars and in what sequence so that community understands how those decisions are arrived at in the public interest?

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: That wasn't actually in the AG recommendations. I hear you on that, but your comment is the first time I've heard it. I think with modulars and the funding that we've had, primarily they've all gone in HRCE, where the growth is - a couple of outliers from that in a non-Halifax area.

 

But to date, we've been able to meet the need. HRCE identifies its priorities - where they're concerned around overcrowding, what they can manage through boundary adjustments or reconfiguration of grades - and then we've been able to meet the gap with modulars. The funding envelope that we've had has met the need. Other than get them off the assembly line and ready to be on site, we haven't, to date, had to weed any out because we couldn't do it. When they come off the assembly line and where they land is often to deal with how much space the school has available, and if there are additional utilities that need to be factored in, and can they accept delivery because we don't put them in during the school year. They all go in in the eight weeks of summer.

 

To date, we haven't had to make choices over something else. We've been able to meet the need with the funding envelope.

 

PAUL WOZNEY: As someone who's taught in both portable and modular classrooms, they're a necessary interim measure, but they're not the same as in-building classrooms. Are the department and its partners tracking data about the impact of learning in these spaces versus learning in regular classroom spaces?

 

THE CHAIR: Order, please. We'll have to leave that one on the floor.

 

Next we'll go to MLA Mombourquette for 12 minutes, please.

 

HON. DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: My first question is around the repairs. You said $30 million. I believe $25 million of that is from the feds. There was an announcement made a few years back around that money. I'm just trying to confirm that. It's important, because if that's predominantly federal government money that came in back in 2021, is that money still committed by the feds or will the Province have to pick up the rest? Initially there was $6 million in infrastructure for repairs, but then the feds announced $25 million on top of it, which is your $30 million.

 

THE CHAIR (Marco MacLeod): Deputy Minister Barbrick.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: Thank you for the question. You see my confused face. To my knowledge, there is not a federal transfer related to that $30 million in TCA funds. (Interruption) Oh, yes. My colleague can probably address the ICIP program.

 

THE CHAIR: Executive Deputy Minister LaFleche.

 

PAUL LAFLECHE: (Interruption) You will remember that that was an ICIP. We were allowed to reallocate some of the money in the Investing in Canada Infrastructure Program capital. I think it was a one-year-only deal, but we've have to get back - we can get you more information. It was the government that increased it from $6 million to $24 million. That actually comes out of our current capital allotment as part of our annual capital planning. The Investing in Canada Infrastructure Program federal money, that's an historical item dating, I think, to 2021-22.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: I appreciate the answer on that. I was just curious because if it was still a federal commitment, we were hopeful that the federal government continues on that - because then the Province would have to do it, but the Province is footing the bill for it. I appreciate the information.

 

On a question I asked earlier - and this is something that is really going to be critical, not only in HRCEs but across the province - the population is going to change. You mentioned the software. Does that software track immigration targets? Does it track any of that information? We're in a situation where the economy is such that we're seeing it soften. We know that the newcomers coming to Nova Scotia are going to see a decline. You're seeing it in our university system now. So all of this is going to play a huge impact on how the department is going to plan. Are you tracking the immigration side of things as well?

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: If I put on my Department of Advanced Education hat for a minute - living the immigration student caps every day right now. A couple of things have happened. Yes, the targets as they're set by Canada for the Province are included. Because those targets have been reduced so significantly across all three streams - work permits, study permits, and temporary foreign workers - then the numbers have changed pretty dramatically in terms of that increase on top of that, which we talk about everywhere - a little less related to this, but not in terms of capital needs.

 

The Canadian brand damage for immigration from the changes in immigration policy and how volatile it's been, has really harmed even our ability to get the study work and temporary foreign workers that we once had and needed. Really, the landscape has changed dramatically so that the Univerus Baragar Systems projections include the caps, but the scenarios around different possibilities for how this might change are a moving target that we're trying to keep line of sight to for a number of different reasons.

 

THE CHAIR (Susan Leblanc): MLA Mombourquette.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: This is something that we're all going to be watching moving forward. It's really going to, I think, play a big part, not only in HRCE but across the province in how we look at infrastructure and what is necessary. One of the other pieces of the infrastructure and something we all support was school lunch programs. In your new builds - every one of these facilities - is there a blueprint part of that where the schools are going to have their own facilities to actually deliver that program? We know that some schools are shipping - obviously, food's coming in from an outside source. Are you looking at that in your designs?

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: There are three different ways that we deliver school lunch programs right now. One is what I would call a traditional - I grew up in Tatamagouche with kitchen lunch ladies who work there. Then the second model is what's subcontracted out to a company that brings the food in. Then there's a kind of hybrid where the existing kitchen in the school is subcontracted to a company that comes in and prepares lunch on site. So there are sort of three models. We definitely know that the traditional cafeteria with a proper kitchen is what's most successful in the school lunch program. A little bit of adjustments made as needed - that sort of thing. So in schools going forward, a kitchen with capacity to do lunch is definitely part of the priority around school lunches.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: That's good to hear because you are right. We hear it on the ground. It's unscientific that the schools that actually have those facilities, the program is more successful. We also hear of a lot of waste in situations, too, which I think the government should be tracking, but that's a conversation for another day.

 

How much time do I have left, Chair? Six minutes. My next question is really more directed toward the Auditor General. The conversation I always - this is her report. We're here having a conversation about a whole number of facets of the report - some things that aren't in the report.

 

I would, if possible, like some comments from the Auditor General on what we've been talking about today and the confidence level of the office moving forward to better plan. We're talking about explosive population growth. Now we're in a situation where trends may change. All of this impacts how we plan as a province accordingly - not only in HRCE but across the province.

 

[10:30 a.m.]

 

I know you don't have a microphone. If there's a way for the Auditor General to make a comment, I would appreciate it. It's your report. We want to show the respect.

 

THE CHAIR: We do have time for the Auditor General to make comments at the end, but we'll take this specific question now, if you'd like.

 

Mr. LaFleche, I'm wondering if you could lend your microphone to Ms. Adair. She'll just come up to the microphone. (Interruption)

 

Ms. Adair.

 

KIM ADAIR: In general, I think the exchange this morning has been very good in terms of the whole accountability process. Throughout the line of questioning, I think almost all of our recommendations have been referred to, and an indication by the witnesses that they are going to implement them - some of them already, some of them in process. That would be my general comment.

 

You asked about going forward. I don't think it's really appropriate for me to speak about going forward. We did give positive comments in the report on the model and the inputs to the model, so I'm confident that they've got a good system in place to project enrolment going forward.

 

Hopefully that's helpful.

 

THE CHAIR: MLA Mombourquette.

 

DEREK MOMBOURQUETTE: That was my only question for now. I appreciate it. We'd just like to show the respect and give you the opportunity to comment on your work and the Office's work.

 

My next question is around the consultation process. You're seeing the government now take over, essentially, planning in the HRM. There are processes in place where - as former councillors; I'm a former councillor with the CBRM - there are public participation processes that are in place that we see when developments arise. This really changes that relationship, with the Province coming in and taking over that role. We're all kind of curious to see how that's going to play out.

 

But the key in all of it, regardless of who's responsible, is giving the public the ability to have a say. You're seeing big developments here around Halifax. You're going to get a lot of feedback from people, and now that the Province is really taking over that planning role - or trying, or however that's going to work out - they should be able to be a little more forthright in selecting land and assets that they want to put forward for schools and other public infrastructure as these developments arise.

 

The other part of that as well is that the elected representatives - MLAs - have a lot of feedback from their communities. They have a lot of knowledge about their communities. I guess my question is: What more of a role can we be playing as elected representatives in our communities to help support that new infrastructure or existing infrastructure to support our kids?

 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick with two minutes.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: You wear an unenviable hat, all of you. It's a difficult role to play in your communities, given the varied interests. I think for school builds, the steering committee piece and encouraging people who want to make a commitment to the time that's spent as part of the design and then becoming kind of a conduit to the community for information is a really important role, and one that for Halifax - HRCE - plays a larger role than we do in ensuring that the contribution to the design process is fulsome with both educators as well as community members. Part of that, and encouraging people to participate in that information and holding us all to account around priority needs.

 

The facility-condition assessments, I think, are a terrific addition. Those were not standard practice until the last couple of years. The fact that 200 schools were fully assessed last year - because depending on your own community; I grew up in Tatamagouche - all I would generally see is my Tatamagouche school and some in the surrounding area. The opportunity to have an unbiased assessment of infrastructure and make sure that we're assessing it on a condition and then looking at our population growth and really holding ourselves to account around data-informed decisions and that, I think, is the opportunity.

 

THE CHAIR: Order, please. We'll move on to MLA MacLeod.

 

MARCO MACLEOD: You know what? I'll turn it over to MLA Wong to finish off the question he had.

 

THE CHAIR: Okay. MLA Wong, please.

 

BRIAN WONG: Thank you, Chair. Permission to frame my question?

 

THE CHAIR: Yes, as long as it's not going into government priorities because this committee is about the Auditor General and the multi-partisan approach to improving systems and departments. When we veer off into government priorities, it's not a part of this committee. If you can stay away from that, that would be great.

 

BRIAN WONG: Thank you for that, Chair. Others have also framed their questions; I appreciate the opportunity. Just continuing on with the same theme that I was on about school design, John Hattie, one of the leading educational resource researchers in the world has said that the number one factor in students learning is collective teacher efficacy. Therefore, the ability for teachers to talk about students and to work on ways to make it better for them. We know at the same time that the nature of our student population has changed, and students need places to regulate. They need places to be able to have those conversations and to have those interactions with their peers. How has the design of schools changed in order to accommodate teachers to work collaboratively and for students to have what they need?

 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: I'm going to start, if that's okay, and then I know my colleague Steve Gallagher has significantly more experience than I do in terms of being an educator and how that space translates to teachers. I know you do as well, but the school standards that exist are relatively new.

 

The introduction of space that's not just classroom space for some of those things that you talk about: speciality teacher support rooms, breakout rooms from the classroom, space between classrooms for small group work in terms of additional support to the classroom that used to have to go down to another floor - the introduction of those things - private bathrooms with full walls that are non-gender specific but separate and private space for everybody, and then common spaces for the things that make sense. Tremendous change in practice over time. That sweet spot that I think is still under lots of discussion with educator excellence is this issue of what is the right size of a school and how does that change the dynamic in the schools? We have a particular set of numbers that we work with right now, but that's certainly one that's up for a lot of discussion and I expect will change over time.  

 

If the Chair is comfortable with it, I think Mr. Gallagher would have - particularly West Bedford School which just opened under these new standards - I think would have lots of additional information.

 

THE CHAIR: Mr. Gallagher.

 

STEVE GALLAGHER: I appreciate the question; it's quite a good one. It extends beyond new school builds. I think it's important to say at the outset that building is secondary. In fact, maybe it's way down the list compared to a skilled staff of deeply committed teachers and a support team in every school. I'm proud to say we have that in the HRCE. Oftentimes when we see some of our older buildings, there's a quick judgement made. That's a mistake because magic is happening in classrooms every day in those buildings. It's all about the people; it's not about the structure.

 

Having said that, we do know that student outcomes improve when people work together. Some of our new builds, the builds that I've walked through - the deputy minister mentioned West Bedford, but others - are designed to create a much greater flow of both staff and students, opportunity for interaction, and in particular, opportunity for collaboration. There are shared spaces for students, and there are shared spaces for staff in a way that the traditional school model of 20 or 30 years ago didn't have. As much as we shape our buildings and then they shape us, there is a significant impact there. You can't put that ahead of a committed team of skilled professionals working together. That's what we see every day in our schools in the HRCE.

 

THE CHAIR: We'll move on to MLA MacLeod, please.

 

MARCO MACLEOD: Good morning, folks. As I've learned in the AG's report, there's a scoring committee to determine the priority of projects. In the case that there are projects that have the same score, how does the department decide which school projects to prioritize?

 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: In terms of process, the RCEs and CSAP put forward their priorities that they're experiencing in terms of enrolment, growth, capital needs, and repairs. Then they come into the department. There is a committee that essentially sifts and sorts those into three categories: low, medium, and high. That's done with a committee of folks from both the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development and the Department of Public Works, and that set of projects is divided into buckets. The complete sifting and sorting goes to the minister and Cabinet makes a decision based on the available funds.

 

Regional distribution is always a focus on a combination of things, both builds and replacements as well as capital repairs and making sure that we are bringing the province up together and that we don't have tremendous disparity across the province. Of course, HRCE and population growth - there's just been a bit of a pressure there that's had to be addressed, hence a lot of our capital projects are to respond to that population growth. There is a committee that does a fair amount of robust discussion back and forth. Tyler, who I introduced earlier, is on speed dial with all of the RCEs and their operations leaders in assessing those projects to make sure that they are adequately reflected in the sorting.

 

MARCO MACLEOD: In the report, the second recommendation is basically that the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development and the Department of Public Works work together to resolve delays in construction. There are a lot of projects on the go. Have you been able to find ways to streamline the design and build process or find efficiencies?

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: My colleague on my left and my colleague on my right spend a whole lot of time together trying to work through these 19 projects. The collaboration across the departments and the RCEs is at an all-time high as we try to work through these things as quickly as we can. The Department of Public Works has certainly looked at different ways to commission these projects so instead of one person designing it and then a separate company going back out to tender to build it, they're packaging more things. I won't speak on their behalf. They certainly are more articulate than I am about that. We are continuing to have high touch with each of these projects with weekly meetings across the departments to get as efficient as we can, and then the Department of Public Works's tendering process, they're working on every place they can streamline that. I think they would be able to speak to that better than I can.

 

THE CHAIR: MLA MacLeod, would you like to hear from the Department of Public Works?

 

MARCO MACLEOD: Sure, that'd be great.

 

THE CHAIR: Ms. McLellan, please, and we have three minutes left.

 

TONYA MCLELLAN: I'd be glad to elaborate on that. As Deputy Minister Barbrick just alluded to, we are collaborating quite frequently. We meet regularly on a weekly basis - more, obviously, if needed. We've really started to look at the process that we have in place, starting right with the architectural and engineering designs and looking for ways to standardize those, ways that we can repeat them because we do have such a large number of schools going forward. We are in the process now and we have had that under way for a while of adopting a school planning guide. That will set out certain parameters that will make decision points easier as we start to go forward.

 

When it comes to our contracting, we've taken a collaborative approach with that as well. I think I've talked about this before, but we're using the collaborative design build approach where we have our builder and our designer working together from the very beginning to look for efficiencies. It also allows us opportunities to tender certain packages earlier - maybe we could get going on site works while design is still very active and very under way.

 

I think one other piece of this that's really worth mentioning is land. Land has been a big sticking point - somewhat problematic, as to get the right piece of land for the right programming. The strategic land fund has assisted us in that part - in dealing with that - and is allowing us to get out ahead of some of these new builds that we know are coming. Again, another very important piece of the collaboration and the streamlining that we have under way.

 

THE CHAIR: MLA MacLeod with just under a minute.

 

[10:45 a.m.]

 

MARCO MACLEOD: I'll go to the short question, then. Just curious - we talked a lot about portables and even modulars. Has it been done before, or is there any plan to move modulars or portables from one school to another when the need changes?

 

THE CHAIR: Deputy Minister Barbrick.

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: They are technically built to be able to be moved. The lifespan of these modulars is about 30 years. I don't know that, in practice, we will be moving them a lot. They are technically designed that way. They can be taken apart and reassembled somewhere else. I think we're going to find that the strategic life of the asset - it will probably make sense to put it in place and leave it in place, but they can be moved. It takes a little bit of money to disassemble and reassemble them, but it can happen if we need to.

 

THE CHAIR: Order, please. That concludes the time for questions.

 

Now I will give our witnesses a chance for some closing remarks. Want to start, Deputy Minister Barbrick?

 

TRACEY BARBRICK: Sure. Thank you for the discussion today. It is an important one. There is not much more coveted by community than their local school.

 

The Auditor General has given us excellent recommendations that we will enact. It is focused on growth schools, of which we have not had to do very much until recent years.

 

At this point, we are building 19 schools. Five opened last year. We're spending $30 million on capital repairs and another $40 million on modulars to make sure that schools aren't overcrowded. There are things we need to do to improve process, and we absolutely will do that, but the right things are happening to move the need for schools forward in the province.

 

THE CHAIR: Mr. Gallagher, would you like to make some closing remarks?

 

STEVE GALLAGHER: I just want to thank all of you for the opportunity to come here with my colleague Doug and to share the story of growth in the HRCE. It has been quite a dramatic event for us over the last few years. Growing by more than a large high school every year is very challenging. I'll say, to MLA Mombourquette's question, we only grew by a large elementary school this year, so the breathing room is welcome.

 

Thank you for the opportunity.

 

THE CHAIR: We'll go to Mr. Jessome, please, if you have some closing remarks.

GERARD JESSOME: No, I don't have anything to add. I just appreciate the opportunity to be before the committee.

 

THE CHAIR: We'll go to the Auditor General. Because this topic relates to an Auditor General Report, we will now be offering her the chance to make any remarks based on what she's heard.

 

Ms. Adair.

 

KIM ADAIR: As I said, I think it's been a very good exchange - focused on the findings in our report, focused on our recommendations. The only thing I would add is that we will be following up on implementation of the recommendations as part of our routine process after allowing the departments some time to implement them. We will report back to the committee in terms of whether or not, in fact, they are.

 

THE CHAIR: Thank you very much. The witnesses may go. I know there's media probably outside.

 

We will continue on with committee business. We only have 11 minutes, so I'd like to just barrel on through without a break if that's okay.

 

The first thing, if you go to your agenda and your package, is that we have to approve the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure's Record of Decision from September 17^th. Members have been provided with the Record of Decision relating to the witnesses for the 2025 Report of the Auditor General around planning and acquiring nursing home beds. The topic would be Nursing Home Beds, and the witness would be the Department of Seniors and Long-term Care's deputy minister. I need a motion to approve that record of decision.

 

MLA MacLeod.

 

MARCO MACLEOD: I move that we approve the record of decision made by the subcommittee on September 17^th.

 

THE CHAIR: Thank you. Any discussion on that? (Interruption) Is there any discussion? No? Great.

 

All those in favour? Contrary minded? Thank you.

 

The motion is carried.

 

Then we have a deferred motion from the September 10^th meeting. At that meeting, members were provided with a letter from CEO Karen Oldfield from the Nova Scotia Health Authority requesting that Derrick Spinney, Vice President of Corporate Services and CFO, and Chief Information Officer Scott McKenna, attend the meeting regarding the AG Report on Cybersecurity instead of herself as they are best able to answer the detailed questions.

 

The following motion was deferred from September 10^th, and this is a motion, I believe, from MLA Wozney. “. . . that the Chair request the CEO of Nova Scotia Health Authority attend the meeting where that topic comes for review.” Before we have any discussion on that, I'm just wondering if the AG - because it pertains to an AG Report - has any comments on this motion, and then I'll open it up for discussion on the motion.

 

Ms. Adair.

 

KIM ADAIR: In previous discussions, the question about whether or not the deputy minister should appear, my comment remains the same - that the deputy minister is the individual who is most responsible and accountable for the implementation of our report. In anticipation of this question, I did go to our colleagues, the Canadian Audit & Accountability Foundation. Leslie Burns - you may recall that name as she was involved in our orientation and training with the committee. I got a response late yesterday. I do have copies of this, and I will give it to the committee clerk, but I thought you might be interested to know what the practice is across the country in terms of the deputy minister appearing at Public Accounts Committees. It's a couple of pages, but I'll just take some snippets of it that I think are most useful.

 

They did a survey in 2017 - these are Canadian jurisdictions. The question was: Who does the PAC have the power to call as witnesses and who do they call? Thirteen of 14 jurisdictions indicated that they have the power and do call the deputy ministers. The one jurisdiction that qualified their answer, they followed up and did a recent scan. At this point in time, that jurisdiction now also indicates that for most meetings, they do have the deputy minister. That was a 2017 survey.

 

Something that's more recent is that they did a scan of the last 10 meetings of six jurisdictions: Canada, Ontario, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, British Columbia, and Newfoundland and Labrador. That's six jurisdictions - the last 10 meetings. Among the last 10 meetings for each jurisdiction related to an Auditor General's Report, only four of the 46 meetings did not include the deputy minister. In general, the practice is that the deputy minister appears except for rare situations.

 

With respect to this topic, Cybersecurity Readiness of the Healthcare System, there are three deputies who we are going to be asking to appear. The Nova Scotia Health Authority is one of the three. I would point out that one of the deputy ministers is no longer there who was there at the time that we did the audit, and that's the deputy minister of CSDS. With that in mind, I think it's even more important that the deputy minister or the CEO or acting CEO of NSHA does appear. That's my comment.

 

THE CHAIR: Thank you. I just want to flag that we have five minutes left. Do we need to extend the meeting or can we extend the meeting by five minutes? We don't need to extend the meeting. Does anyone else have any discussion on this? MLA Wong, please.

 

BRIAN WONG: We do support the motion. The reason that we chose to defer it was because you as Chair and the Vice-Chair were both absent.

 

THE CHAIR: Thank you. MLA Wozney, do you have anything to add?

 

PAUL WOZNEY: Seeing as there is support for the motion, I'm happy to let it roll.

 

THE CHAIR: Okay, great.

 

All those in favour? Contrary minded? Thank you.

 

The motion is carried.

 

The last piece of business is the annual report. Members were previously provided with - I'm not supposed to have props, but - the 2025 Annual Report of the committee to review, and no changes were received. The report was on the September 10^th meeting agenda for approval, but the meeting ran out of time. I need a motion to approve the 2025 Annual Report for the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

 

MARCO MACLEOD: I move that the report be accepted as presented and sent back to the House.

 

THE CHAIR: Any discussion on that motion?

 

All those in favour? Contrary minded? Thank you.

 

The motion is carried.

 

We'll bring that back to the House in the Spring sitting.

 

If there's no other business, I'll just mention that our next meeting is October 22^nd. The Department of Growth and Development, the Department of Agriculture, and the Department of Service Nova Scotia will be here to discuss the Nova Scotia Loyal Program, Support for Nova Scotia Businesses.

 

If there's no further business, I will adjourn the meeting. Thank you very much.

 

[The committee adjourned at 10:57 a.m.]